The reaction in India to mr Nandi's remarks , is similar to blasphemy reactions in Pakistan. Bigoted, medieval, putrid and 3rd class.

 This wicked evil man Nandy, a low class mediocrity himself, should not be allowed to get away from insulting my Dalit and other 'backward' classes brothers and sisters. Put him in jail and make this vile creature a horrible example! 

"Then in between we invited multi-nationals into India at the same time nationalizing the banks under Indira Gandhi's secretary P. N. Haksar. Janata party kicked them out only to be pursured by P V N Rao about a decade later with 2-month worth of foreign exchange to pay the bills. Enron was excited to join the gold rush. Lehman brothers left a huge crater in American economy, fortunately Ambani brothers are only happy to pump gas out of holes dug by the government."

Adding to this Geroge Fernandes kicked out Coco Cola and IBM from India and this where Wipro enterted into IT filed as IBM has left behind computers and Manpower...

In Soviet era, Russia had a minister determining how many and what kind of undergarments should country produce. Our own Indian goverment had quota for highly desired Nylon/Polyester fabric in those days that helped Senior Ambani make his fortunes.

Then in between we invited multi-nationals into India at the same time nationalizing the banks under Indira Gandhi's secretary P. N. Haksar. Janata party kicked them out only to be pursured by P V N Rao about a decade later with 2-month worth of foreign exchange to pay the bills. Enron was excited to join the gold rush. Lehman brothers left a huge crater in American economy, fortunately Ambani brothers are only happy to pump gas out of holes dug by the government.

Lalu supposedly fixed railways and got invited to harvard for that and few years later Trivedi got fired for trying to fix it again.

I think its high time we try out bunch of monkeys with latest logitech keyboards.

no one hear has heard of crony capitalism I suppose.

that is why they call it a developing country.

Ashish Nandy I think is trying to say that lower SC/STs aren't as sophisticated in corruption as the upper castes/ classes becasue they are latecomers. The upper castes/classes in India have developed a complex networks of patronage that are opaque to outsiders .On the other hand, many play by the rules, with long years of education and hard work.  

Anyway its a stupid to say it in such a blunt fashion. He sounds like an elderly aunt. Blundering about like this is not expected from major Indian p-secular. Or they not as smart as they think they are.

"I said in the talk that people like Richard Sorabji and I, if we want to be corrupt we can be corrupt in a very subtle way. No money has to exchange hands. I can give his son a fellowship or he can give my daughter a fellowship at Oxford or Harvard. And that will be good enough return and nobody will call it corruption"
 

Can he really do this -arrange a fellowship at Oxford or Harvard just like that or is it bragging.

165/D-129

I agree this is also the classic Indian scence where jholowallahs react unthinkingly to everything. Are they deep conservatives at heart? I

>> So a person who is supposed to be critical of Socialist/commie model, chooses to name the one state (and its leader) which is the opposite and uses every commie jargon, cliché and rhetoric in the book to further the commie narrative of exploitation, completely missing the irony

Brilliant post!

"We condemn it. Ashis Nandy is considered to be an intellectual. He should apologise. We strongly condemn it," he said

Shivanand Tiwari must apologize for confusing "intellectualism" with intelligence.

The Brahmins and the upper caste can do away with all the corruption but when a low caste person emulates the same thing it becomes so wrong. Such a statement is not right," Ashutosh pointed out.

Ashutosh tries to kick his own arse.... and succeeds brilliantly.

"The organisers are playing with our culture by serving liquor in the festival. CM and police should not tolerate this," he said."

True. If it wasn't for liquor, there wouldn't be a "higher" caste.

"Women consume liquor over here is right..."

Sexist comments are right .

"and since I am in a simple attire so you are demanding to push me out?" he shouted."

umm...yeah.

so many comments only suggest how deeply rooted the problem is. how sensitive it is. and how it has hindered our growth.

Then like a lazy intellectuals, they provide the following brilliant insight without basic fact check:

RSM, Delhi

Gujarat's Film actor Naresh Kanodia who is from SC caste and in his childhood he and his brother mahesh Kanodia used to perform street dance/show where made to be super star actor from street dancer and he enjoyed this status for more than 3 decades..

We should not forget that this 2 brothers enjoyed this status for good actor and good singer  when Gujarat was ruled by upper caste Patels, Solanki and Choudary's..And people of Gujarat whom our P-Seculars call Hindutwadi, Baniyas and Upper Caste only watched there movies.

>>India on the other hand engages in titanic effort to keep majority of its population illiterate and ill-informed.

The blame for this titanic effort is put on ‘India’ and not on the people who were ruling the nation for bulk of the 65 years of independence.

However when such thinkers decide to give examples of how our economy works upside down like any commie society, the only name they can recall is Modi’s Gujarat! Even to a blind man it is obvious that Gujarat is totally unlike commie societies but people swallowing rhetoric would obviously miss it.

Then like a lazy intellectuals, they provide the following brilliant insight without basic fact check:

>>Power plants coming up in Modi's shining Gujarat by Adani group among others import coal all the way from Indonesia on barges purchased from Australia rather than dealing with Indian red tape. In the process, vast amount of land is being expropriated near Mundhra port at throw-away prices in the name of Public-Private-Partnership.

A port infrastructure helps in improving trade and economic activity but the committed see it only for coal imports. Second, domestic coal is currently in such shortage that even plants close to mines in Orissa, JHK and CTG are importing and blending coal.

But a rant would not be spicy enough without the mother of all allegations - that typical commie cliché ‘land given at throw-away price’! The Mundra port project is on BOOT basis and reverts back to the government after the concession period. It was low tide muddy land most of which was under sea and had to be reclaimed by Adanis. But then when you are on a roll with such profound insights, why bother with SC ruling (and prior HC ruling) which dismissed petition challenging the allocation on grounds of lack of merit.

Next we get some serious observations on the workings of a power plant

>>At the same time, day laborer at these same power plants is being paid 1.5 $ per day, from which he is supposed to eat, pay rent, save, invest and send his kids to school to survive all the humiliation the kid….

Here for the first time we see a social justice argument and justifications of corruption being force fitted into power plant operations. But you cannot expect propagandists to know that power plant operations do not require daily labourers. Besides, labour is not restricted by the state and is free to move if they think they are underpaid (we are told US$1.5) for operating power plants as wages are determined by demand/supply. But such facts should not come in the way when you are arduously making a case of ‘class war’ and 'rich ill-treating the poor'!

So a person who is supposed to be critical of Socialist/commie model, chooses to name the one state (and its leader) which is the opposite and uses every commie jargon, cliché and rhetoric in the book to further the commie narrative of exploitation, completely missing the irony.
 

>>that is nonsense.

Actually most of his rants are.
 

 GHAI Sahib,

You are absolutely right about p-seculars. But they survive and make their careers because of no right opposition in the nation and rampant moral corruption on all sides. 

And look at those who are preaching that Jinnah was secular ! They have written books of their account. What do you say to them ?

Nandy is not the only one who is perverting history of the nation. P-seculars are not the only guilty mob here.

Pinaki Ray,

>> ASISH NANDY was an invited speaker in one of the literary-politico festivals held in Adelaide.

A totally pointless post! A lowly attempt at smearing.

156

Yes, it does to everyone who hears of South Asian arms race and Gandhi's chastising of western powers.

you mean Nehru's moralising. Yes it was drivel.

Then are we prepared to deal with a situation when they do have a choice?

what does that mean. Muslims demanding another partition? It won't happen for the same reasons  they are in a minority in most districts. Eerybody will come to terms will it

. But, yes congress has used the excuse of diversity and associated difficulties to create corrupt bureacracy with no accountability.

fully agree. But if we want a common purpose, common identity, that becomes Hindu hegemony. So you can't win

When a prominent elderly Member of Parliament (Zafri) is murdered in front of his aging wife and family and other despicable crimes are commited, upper class and top positions seem kind of meaningless

A murder however brutal doesn't make it meaningless.

 #154

>>>>Sure and India was acquiring Soviet weaponry to spread Gandhian ideals; by force if necessary.

>>just stop and consider how dumb that sounds.

Yes, it does to everyone who hears of South Asian arms race and Gandhi's chastising of western powers.

 #153

>>Apart from that there was a small exchange of population, usually upper classes. The remaining Muslims was dispersed amoung the population at low density and did not have the means to make a move.

You are correct and I retract. So, it was not by choice. Then are we prepared to deal with a situation when they do have a choice?

>>The few upper class Muslims in India always did fine. Many had top positions in government

When a prominent elderly Member of Parliament (Zafri) is murdered in front of his aging wife and family and other despicable crimes are commited, upper class and top positions seem kind of meaningless; quite similar to what happened to wealthy Jews in Europe. So, western metaphors do apply; fortunately not to the same inhuman level of uglieness as in Europe.

You can extradite all Indian Jholawalas to US universities but that is not going to change the realities of Indian history, sociology and politics.

Confused or diverse. But, yes congress has used the excuse of diversity and associated difficulties to create corrupt bureacracy with no accountability.

152/D-119
 

Sure and India was acquiring Soviet weaponry to spread Gandhian ideals; by force if necessary.

just stop and consider how dumb that sounds.

152/D-119
 

close to half the muslim population of South Asia made a clear choice to live in a country with a secular constitution.

are you really this clueless. Partition was only offered to parts of the British Raj which had a muslim majority.  Apart from that there was a small exchange of population, usually upper classes.  The remaining Muslims was dispersed amoung the population at low density and did not have the means to make a move. Smart choice as we can see from the fate of the Mohajirs in Karachi, constantly engaging in gun warfare. There is no place for Indian muslims in Pakistan.

If and when they acquire economic, political and educational wherewithal just like the hindu middle classes today, they will also question (may be they already are) their own status and role within India.

the muslims in India are the artisan classes and peasantry. Some are undoubteldy improving their status and economic position. The few upper class Muslims in India always did fine. Many had top positions in government

No place on the planet has done well over a long term by suppressing and alienating minorities.

You are adopting Western slavery metaphors, probably becasue thats what your Western audiences understand. Most Indian jhollawallahs do this, understandably, becasuse they might get a job in a US university. India is a confused country. 

However there are many minorites in India and no simplistic narrative can apply. It remains a poor country becasuse of Congress economic policies 

 #150

>>The arms race between India and Pak was started in the 1950s when Pakistan joined some American led cold war alliances.

Sure and India was acquiring Soviet weaponry to spread Gandhian ideals; by force if necessary.

Yeah, we all know about compulsions of geopolitics but I was thinking more in domestic terms.

Regardless of rabid fundamentalism in pakistani society today, it is easy to forget that even after the traumatic events of the partition, close to half the muslim population of South Asia made a clear choice to live in a country with a secular constitution.

If and when they acquire economic, political and educational wherewithal just like the hindu middle classes today, they will also question (may be they already are) their own status and role within India.

No place on the planet has done well over a long term by suppressing and alienating minorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fodder_Scam

The Fodder Scam (Devanagari: ???? ??????, chara gho?ala) was a corruption scandal that involved the embezzlement of about INR950 crore (US$172.9 million) from the government treasury of the eastern Indian state of Bihar.[1] Among those implicated in the theft and arrested were then Chief Minister of Bihar, Laloo Prasad Yadav, as well as former Chief Minister, Jagannath Mishra.[2][3] The scandal led to the end of Laloo's reign as Chief Minister. There is also allegation on Nitish Kumar and Shivanand Tiwari of receiving 1 Crore and 60 Lakh Rupees respectively from S.B. Sinha.

149/D-95

It also actively encourages communal politics that not only creates domestic disturbances but also forces exorbitant arms race on already impoverished population of its own and its neighbors with whom it has so many shared interests and history.

that is nonsense. The arms race between India and Pak was started in the 1950s when Pakistan joined some American led cold war alliances. For this they received frontline American fighter jets and tanks, which was a quantum jump over the old WW2 equipment possed by both states till then.. You may have heard ( probably not) of patton nagar (1965).

You are now spouting the usual drivel like many "intellectual" Indians

Brahmbhatt can't sleep again, so here he goes ranting ...

India is indeed an up-side-down (unique if you will) place:

Most countries in the world are trying to match financial constraints against the requirements of defense, social services and education.

India on the other hand engages in titanic effort to keep majority of its population illiterate and ill-informed.

It also actively encourages communal politics that not only creates domestic disturbances but also forces exorbitant arms race on already impoverished population of its own and its neighbors with whom it has so many shared interests and history.

Most countries in the world have acknowledged importance of well-off middle class and bridging of wealth-gap as essential to balanced growth, India on the other hand runs scared from the political awakening that accompnies economic empowerment of its middle classes.

Finally, like most socialist/communist societies, Indian economy also runs in an upside down ways.

As an example, it has vast deposits of coal in mineral rich areas of north-east. But, it goes and contracts fradulent Enron (yes, same Enron represented by honorable minister P. Chidambaram as its lawyer) to build a mega power plant in western state of Maharashtra at prices that made no economic sense. Of course, it collapsed eventually and left behind economic damage similar to physical damage left behind by Union Carbaide. In both cases, Indian elites were only too happy to help out the nice gentlemen from the west.

Power plants coming up in Modi's shining Gujarat by Adani group among others import coal all the way from Indonesia on barges purchased from Australia rather than dealing with Indian red tape. In the process, vast amount of land is being expropriated near Mundhra port at throw-away prices in the name of Public-Private-Partnership.

At the same time, day laborer at these same power plants is being paid 1.5 $ per day, from which he is supposed to eat, pay rent, save, invest and send his kids to school to survive all the humiliation the kid can get until one day he can also be accused of corruption when he finds out he and his family have been shafted all along and decides to get even.

Its not hard to figure out "heads-I-win, tails-you-loose" game even if you just landed from Mars, whether it is played on Wall Street or Dalal Street.

All the while, Indian elite delude themselves that average desi can not possibly fathom the complexities of financial jugglery they carry out in Queen's English!

 Arun ... (# 127/D-126) ... yes, there is massive corruption in the western nations, but in a different setting and consequently well hidden under the surface. The corruption is mainly localized in the corporate sector and 'officially' everything is above board as I have related in my post. I know also other cases like the one I mentioned, but difficult to present in a nutshell

You need to live in this society for decades to realize it. But there are checks and balances also. If caught, there is no mercy - no biriyani while stting in the jail. There the analogy with India breaks down  

Yes, there is freedom of press as you correctly pointed out otherwise corruption would not be exposed from time to time just as in the case I noted. A very pertinent example is the wiki-leaks by Assange. The politicians and the corporate world cannot control the power of modern technology, eg. emails, twitter, internet, television and other related computer technology, which has led to totally free media power. This is reality in the modern age.

But then again, unbridled freedom of the press and media could be detrimental to the nation as the British ex-PM Gordon Brown experienced to his dismay. He has very rightly lashed out at News Ltd for their treachery that was made possible only because of freedom of press and consequential opinion making. In fact, a very serious debate is raging in the highest cicles in Britain on how to impose responsibilty on the press so that there is some accountability on the part of journalism. I fully agree with that philosophy, but I think it is going to be a futile exercise for a democracy since the power induced by technology will  trump all poitical moves for control.

#143/D-75 @ Pinaki S Ray -

Nandy seems to be suffering from a serious case of Stockholm syndrome, with no hopes of recovery.

 Pinaki S Ray Sahib

Many many thanks for the  informative post D-75/143 .
You confirm my impression that Nandy is a tainted p-secular .
 

 Nandi Bull

(corrected )

 Nandi ka toh Nadi Bull ho gaya ! 

 

 ASISH NANDY

was an invited speaker in one of the literary-politico festivals held in Adelaide about 3 years (?) ago. He gave his speech to an audience mainly of locals (Australians, Italians ..) in a closed door session. It so happened that by a strange coincidence I received an invitation letter from some source and I attended.

The theme of Nandy's address was the events of partition of India. He presented that history as the greatest holocast in history where Muslims were slaughtered right left and centre by the Hindus. That was the justification of creation of Pakistan, that Muslims had to leave the main Hindu land for survival. No mention of the killing of Hindus in Bengal and Punjab, that actually the Hindus fled for life from West Punjab and East Bengal.

After listening to him for a while I decided to challenge him for perversion of history at the end of the session where normally there is a question time for the audience. Alas, on that occassion, there was no question time and I saw Nandy hurriedly leaving the hall, presumably in anticipation that some one in the know might ask him an unpleasant question.

So I remained baffled pondering at the issue of "Freedom of Speech" in a democracy. After that event, I visited Calcutta for a few days and decided to enquire about the background of this character Nandy, if anyone knew. This is what I was told by knowledgeable residents of Calcutta.

Nandy and his family elders were refugees from erstwhile East Bengal when Pakistan was created. They sought refuge in Calcutta to escape the fury of Islam and lived for a while in 1950s in a house in Begbagan, somewhere in the vicinity of Circus Avenue, Theatre Rd and Lower Circular Rd. That area was the hotbed of Islamic terror unleashed by the Jinnah's thugs in 1946 when the armed Muslims went on rampaging on Hindu homes, indiscriminately murdering the Bengali Hindus all around in a sudden vicious attack. I am sure Nandy's family knew all of this history and passed on that to young Nandy at that time.

Nandy needs and deserves a good bodily thrashing now when he goes out in the street anywhere in India to understand the cost of Freedom of Speech just like there is no free lunch in this world. 

Ramki .... the operative phrase in my comment was "creative ghapla" - with an emphasis on creative. I became a fan of Lalu from the day of "Chara Ghotala". In my wildest dreams I know I couldn't have ever thought of crores to be made (when being Lakhpati was a big thing) on something that "cows eat" and I am a Marwari. I rate him as the Ghotala Whizkid and willing to excuse him for the sheet creativity, audacity, earthiness and scale ... poor cows of all that Lalu ruled of course - couldn't become meat and couldn't live either.

Of course I am a realist from this very real world, so I know ALL countries have corruption - developed or otherwise. We of course along with many are special - it is both endemic and creative (some say even now genetically encoded) - as in the desi brain works first to figure out the shortest path to the most wealth (means justifying the ends or sometimes robin hood ends justifying the means or sometimes historical injustices justifying both the means and ends). From all accounts we are not at the top of the mountain of corruption but very close to it though.

Where is  Brahmbhatt ?? I dont see him after post 133

Ashish Nandy gets caught in controversies more due to dis-articulation. But those who understand him and read his work are aware to what he stands for.  Reservation, dalits, SC/ST, OBC's and minorities (read Muslims) are too sensitive issues in present day competitive politics. Politicians exploit to play politics, and members of these communities hide behind it when caught in any wrogdoing  Anything related to them can cause instant controversy, and 24x7 TV channels play it. Hindu-Manuvadi has become a dirty word.

The politics of social justice has brought rapid change. It has unleashed energies of those who were long suppressed. But because the change failed to keep pace with the understanding of the new emerging identity and reducing mistrust, there is an element of vengence and increasing intolerance in reactions. 

Those demending his arrest must, silently, be doubting their wisdom. But they are captives of political compulsions, and deserve pity. This will not reduce Nandy in anyway who is worldover recognised, widely read and decorated acedemic.  

 Comments #108 to # 117,

Different views, but please, please understand that:

BENGAL IS NOT INDIA..(In terms of social/caste structures/issues etc)

Social conditions vary so much from state to state in India. Rabble rousing feudal morons like Nandy will pretend to not understand this but right thinking folks here must know this.

 Arun Maheswari >> Pinaki ... nice to know about creative ghapla (corruption) in developed countries like Australia too ... so also nice to know we desis aren't alone.

Seriously Arun , were you thinking that India was only place on earth where all social evils existed (corruption, sexual crimes, thuggery, etc etc)? Or that all other 180 nations in this planet were heavens and filled with good , rule abiding citizens?

 Hitesh >> You know what would vindicate hindu high priests? when there are lines for Visa at an Indian consulate instead of an American one

GUESS WHAT? This was indeed the case, right till medievial ages. How?

We had a procession of foreign travellers coming to India to trade and write stories - Pliny, Fahein, Hse Tsang, Marco Polo etc etc...

Then we had entire Western Europe by 14-15th centuries, crazy about finding a trade route to India. Columbus lead a team into Atlantic and saw Haiti but called it India . Vasco da gama landed in india successfully and did not stop. The western european nations aggressively invested in trade routes, shipping, and trading posts in India, the way they never did in any other nation. And when British East india company won in India and grabbed rich provinces of UP/Bihar/Bengal that was more than enough for UK to celebrate even though they lost USA(13 state) around same time (1776). Guess what, UK in 1780 felt India's backward UP/Bihar/Bengal was much more worthy than the present superpower USA..

Okay, I stop boring with this historical drivel but factually india's caste system and 2000 years of rule by non manuwadi hindus and 3000 years of caste system's tyranny this cursed land has been relatively more prosperous, right till 1800 AD, something that Mahatma Gandhi et al did understand , something we felt the Likes of Nehru would restore and something the 56 years of CONGRESS rule has failed to bring about.

DC,

You can watch the debate here:

www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx

Unless I see the entire interview/debate I cannot say for sure if Nandy was quoted out of context or not. A leftwing jhollawallah intellectual Nandy often makes nuanced remarks and uses complex reasoning to express his views. Some of his interviews I had to read twice to understand what he wanted to convey.

He is a diehard leftist, a staunch critic of BJP/Modi and has always sided with the downtrodden. I am not therefore too convinced that he is anti-dalit in his outlook.

As regards politicians from dalits and OBCs, they are as corrupt as politicians from forward castes. In India corruption has no caste barrier.

In today's India anybody expressing opinion that is perceived to be against dalits or adivasis or OBCs attracts criticism from everyone. An old cartoon on Ambedkar can create pandamonium in the parliament. But if you bad mouth the forward castes or bramhins it is treated as free speech not a hate speech.

Its hard to know if Mr Nandi's observation are statistically valid.

However the caste based Quota system itself is a corrupt mechanism and I can understand if someone obtained something by unfair ( caste quota ) means, he may view corruption as okay !!!  

Maybe that's the reason Mr Nandi has hit a raw nerve and have people frothing in the mouth in hysteria.

I support Quota systems, aimed at economically depived. If 99% of the economically derpived ate SC/ST 's then they should receive 99% of the benefits targetting economically backward sections. A son of a poor farmer, Brahmin or ST , essentially faces same hardships and the state should help them and level the playing field by supporting them in education. The support should be in the form of economic aid for their education / food/ healthcare.

The caste based quota system , irrespective of economic status, is not defensible , while a economic criteria based quota system, is.

 #111

>>during pal regime in bengal, deemed unclean samaj was cleansed by importing brahmins from north.

they should sanitize all imports with anti-corruption spray (like an anti-bacterial handwash) before wider deployment :-)

 #112

>>hysteria ... that is a spectacle in itself.

Nandy also probably thought he was going to have a blast being a hipster in his old age and pot-belly and what better place to do it than a world-renowned Jaipur Literature Festival.

But, these are not 1970s. He didn't realize it was going to be ON like a Donkey-Kong.

They should just let the law take its course and then let him retire to the safety of his ideological cocoon.

If we can't bring those Khap jackasses to books then Nandy is much more benign idiot in comparison.

 #130

If you dig deep enough, you get buried.

According to most medical experts, it doesn't hurt after that unless you are a devout hindu (with whole karma and re-birth thing)

Acknowledge it, redress it and move on.

Just don't dig deeper, when you are in a hole.
hitesh brahmbhatt, san diego

Naked Truth Hurts A Lot Right?

Nandy has stigmatised eqully OBCs also, why OBC which forms majority poulace  of the country irrespective of religious denomination dont stand up for this generalisation. Who are IAS couple from MP who amassed wealth running in to hundreds of crores of rupees which surfaced last year? Are they SC/ST and OBC.Their names are self explanatory to which caste/ creed they belong to. It has become customary in our country by the bureacarcy to cover up all such cases if it is by their own stock and barrel. .  

//But, then you don't really have to wait for the Sanghi to speak before knowing what he wants to say!//

This is a bit dodgy. The sanghis are happy to respond to people that dislike them.
Why not engage with the sanghis and refute their pov instead of conveniently ignoring them and claiming intellectual superiority?
This is exactly how the Aryan Invasion Theory got debunked and the proponents then conveniently shifted goalposts, Sometimes, sanghis get it right too. And some of their opponents, are as, if not more, intellectually handicapped.

Pinaki ... nice to know about creative ghapla (corruption) in developed countries like Australia too ... so also nice to know we desis aren't alone.

I must be missing some subtle point here but whether Freedom of Speech and Expression, is fundamental, absolute, sacred or sacrosant or just on paper (like ours), the same trick could still be used. So what was your point is lost in of course a very long interesting story. In fact it was a free media (requiring Freedom of Speech and Expression) that uncovered the scheme.

# 42/D-37 :

"This is what US Supreme Court has to say , even if someone says distasteful or offensive things about religion "From the standpoint of freedom of speech and the press, a state has no legitimate interest in protecting any or all religions from views distasteful to them which is sufficient to justify prior restraints upon the expression of those views. It is not the business of government in our nation to suppress real or imagined attacks upon a particular religious doctrine, whether they appear in publications, speeches, or motion pictures."

GURUDEV SHOREY, HOUSTON

Mr Shorey seems to be a naive person to swallow as gospel what authorities promulgate as it follows from the above post as well as his previous one # 37/D-12.

The point is law is a murky business in control of the rich and powerful corporate houses in the so-called "democracies" of the Western World. "Freedom" of speech is not black and white, just  as law - everything can be twisted and exploited by political clout and money to justify the unjustfiable.

Let me cite one real event that I have come across as an example to make my point. Some years back, one higly placed politician, in fact Premier of a State in this country needed to be bribed for granting certain favour to a very rich business man in the corporate world.  Incidentally, a Premier is equivalent to a Chief Minister in an Indian state, say like Modi in Gujarat.

Under the pretext of "Freedom of Speech" that rich business man publicly smeared and humiliated the Premier in a despicable manner in various places as well as in the media. Now that Premier was a through and through corrupt politician.

Anyway following the event, the Premier filed a case in the Court here against that corporate heavy weight for defamation - an action completely justified. It so happens under the law, before any case comes for hearing, there is provision in the legal system to settle any dispute out of court if both parties agree. This is universally valid - it saves lot of time and resources of the courts, especially if there is no legal point to contest.

Following that provision for out of court settlement, when that case came for hearing the court allowed for mutual negotiation for settling the dispute. And the businessman agreed to pay the political figure several millions of dollars of "compensation" for having ruined his clean image.

It was only after several years that the journalists found out that the payment of millions of dollars to the politician was infact a "bribe" for the politician in the guise of a "compensation" but carried through legally exploiting the loop hole of "Freedom of Speech" enschrined in the legal system. But nothing could be done legally or politically. The matter stayed at that.

The lesson is that the freedom of speech cannot be regarded as sacrosanct under all circumstances - it can be cynically abused to get favours and political advantages. Money and power play a determining role in this regard.  

Over to you, Mr Shorey !

Pathetic to see Nandy going onto justify corruption by OBC /SC/ST on Times Now.

First he makes a sweeping statement calling them corrupt and then he says  corruption by those communities is a balancing act and is a must.

Every time he tried to wriggle out ,he got into another Quagmire.Poor Nandy.

 #122

You don't have to contort yourself out of shape about some bad things that have happened in the India's past.

Worse things have happened elsewhere.

Acknowledge it, redress it and move on.

Just don't dig deeper, when you are in a hole.

 #122

>>Fact very well establishes that such practice was never been there in India buring widow...All cooked up story...

and the earth is still flat.

You know what would vindicate hindu high priests? when there are lines for Visa at an Indian consulate instead of an American one.
hitesh brahmbhatt, san diego

Just dont try to divert the whole attention from Roy to 2013...Better would be to stick to Roy as you glorified him in you earlier comments...

Modi was Chaiwala serving whom?He served Indian Army too during war on same station serving them with chai...So one was Stooge and another served as patriot..

"Yeah, we all grew up drinking this ideological kool-aid. When it comes to putting your money-where-your-mouth is, its all swiss banks."

Where is the question of swiss bank comes here and you try establish equation with ideology...

"Fact that Brits were wily and exploitative and racist does not convince me that Ram Mohan Roy was not sincere in his desire for positive change; based on what you describe above."

Fact is that Roy was on payroll of British...I still dont understand what kind of positive change he wanted to bring?Fact very well establishes that such practice was never been there in India buring widow...All cooked up story...

What ever you and your Joshua Project 2 tries to establish it is not going to help you any more....

Already you tried to rescue Pal, Roy and hope that Bose will be next in line....

 #118

>>All valuable Vedic knowledge books were stolen. Their main protagonist was Ram Mohan Roy.

I have not heard of terrorists trying to steal secret nuclear weapon formula hidden in those books.

>>Ram Mohan was NO Raja—it is a title given to him by the grateful British

Shri Modi was a Chaiwala before a ...

way too many wierdo sadhu-types have been visiting west for many decades now so westerners can make up their own mind

But, seriously

Given the state of hindu society even in 2013, it is not very surprising that some chose to jump ship as early as 1800s. You could even say Indians have been jumping overboard at every opportunity they get.

>>Rammohun launched his spirited attack against the bastions of Hinduism of Bengal, namely his own Kulin Brahmin priestly clan (then in control of the most of the temples of Bengal) and their priestly excesses.
The social and theological issues Carey chose for Rammohun were calculated to weaken the hold of the dominant Kulin class

>>The Kulin excesses targeted include – the “ grease and lard “ Sati (the concremation of widows), polygamy, idolatory, child marriage, dowry. All causes equally dear to Carey's wicked ideals.

Fact that Brits were wily and exploitative and racist does not convince me that Ram Mohan Roy was not sincere in his desire for positive change; based on what you describe above.

>>irreversibly exposed Roy’s abject lack of knowledge over Brahmanical scripture and Vedanta.

Yeah, we all grew up drinking this ideological kool-aid. When it comes to putting your money-where-your-mouth is, its all swiss banks.

You know what would vindicate hindu high priests? when there are lines for Visa at an Indian consulate instead of an American one.

Its criminal on his part to name the caste in his shallow observation.Now to escape jail , in his clarification he appeared to have contracted the deadly disease of foot in the mouth and tied himself in a bunch of knots

 #117

I became aware of Justice Pal's name in Prof Perry Anderson's interview. He sounds like an apologist for the Japanese war criminals; with Tojo being the worst of them. Hanging was too lenient for him.

For better or worse, upper caste hindus have mostly represented India to the world as they were the first to come into contact with the world. They were also the first to take over from the colonial masters. They seem to have had mixed record in terms of world's opinion of them and India.

Some were genuine progressives; most of them oppoortunists and some genuine retards.

some of this sanghis are just too lazy or too stupid. that's why there are pictures on this wiki article. read it like a picture book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)
hitesh brahmbhatt, san diego

All the original Free Masons , the Boston Brahmins and the filthy rich Parsees of India were opium agents. East India company finally took over India in 1857 after engineering a Sepoy’s revolt – about cow lard and pig grease smeared on cartridges made a Hindu / Muslim who had to bite off the pin, impure.

William Carey's true and hidden task was to make a English Sanskrit dictionary, and get as many Sanskrit works translated to English. All valuable Vedic knowledge books were stolen. Their main protagonist was Ram Mohan Roy.

They also used the great Sanskrit scholar Hariharanada Vidyabagish. Mind you, Ram Mohan was NO Raja—it is a title given to him by the grateful British for being their type of Indian. The “ grease and lard “ story was converted to a “Sati” story.

Between 1796 and 1797 the trio of Carey, Vidyavagish and Roy fabricate a bizarre spurious religious treatise known as the "Maha Nirvana Tantra" (or "Book of the Great Liberation") and palmed it off as an ancient Sanskrit religious text to "the One True God" actually the Holy Spirit of Christianity masquerading as Brahma- to KICK START the conversions from Hindusim to Christianity.

Tantra was reduced to pervert sex.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iDinW7nrySQ/Ti5BM68pl5I/AAAAAAAAEe8/DtBgG8SeCPg/s1600/imagesCA3QLGJN.jpg

For convenience his mother was told that he was in Himalayas searching for the Supreme truth. Ram Mohan Roy was at logger heads with his orthodox Brahmin father , got kicked out of his home at the age of 16 ,due to his lack of respect. To spite his father , he got himself converted to Islam for a brief while learnt Arabic and Koran , and then reconverted himself back to be on the right side of the British

The new idea was to print Bible in Bengali, for which they needed Ram Mohan Roy

Thomas Woodforde, Registrar of the Appellate Court at Murshidabad had previously thrown out Ram Mohan Roy for manipulating accounts and stealing money.

But this was a secret as Woodforde’s nephew had made money out of the fake Vedic text Maha Nirvana Tantra under the pseudonym Arthur Avalon. Woodforde never told John Digby the East India Company collector at Rangpur.

Under Carey's secret tutelage in the next 2 decades, Rammohun launched his spirited attack against the bastions of Hinduism of Bengal, namely his own Kulin Brahmin priestly clan (then in control of the most of the temples of Bengal) and their priestly excesses.
The social and theological issues Carey chose for Rammohun were calculated to weaken the hold of the dominant Kulin class (especially their younger disinherited sons forced into service, who constituted the mobile gentry or "bhadralok" of Bengal) from the Mughal zamindari system and align them to their new overlords of Company. The Kulin excesses targeted include – the “ grease and lard “ Sati (the concremation of widows), polygamy, idolatory, child marriage, dowry. All causes equally dear to Carey's wicked ideals.

In 1815 after amassing large wealth from Opium accounts embezzlement , Rammohun resettled in Calcutta , as a fabulously rich man , enough to rival the rich opium agents-- the Parsees of Mumbai , and started an Atmiya Sabha

British were constantly doing great propaganda how Ram Mohan Roy was fighting against the bad practice of Sati – it hardly existed in Bengal. . Hindu public outrage in 1819 also followed Rammohan's triumph in a public debate over idolatry with Subramanya Shastri, a learned and respected Tamilian Brahmin.

The British sponsored and judged victory, however, also irreversibly exposed Roy’s abject lack of knowledge over Brahmanical scripture and Vedanta. The British could make their own judgements , but the Hindu people knew what he was worth. The Hindu brahmins felt vindicated that all the while they were right about Carey and Marshman were behind Rammohan's English translations on Vedic texts . These supreme cosmic texts were sort of translated to be like shepherds bumpkin verses.

Suddenly in 1819, Rammohan for his won survival now opportunistically turns against Carey and the Serampore missionaries. It was too late, as he had lost the local public trust. He still plodded on as the British agent and stooge, denouncing idolatory , rituals, fighting against govt grants to colleges teaching Sanskrit, arguing about the benefits of English education and way of life etc .
In 1820 he published the ethical teachings of Christ, excerpted from the four Gospels, under the title Precepts of Jesus in appreciation of his translations, the French Société Asiatique in 1824 elected him to an honorary membership. In August 1828 Roy formed the Brahmo Samaj (q.v.; Society of Brahma), a Hindu reformist sect that utilized Unitarian and other liberal Christian elements in its belief.

Then wonder of wonders --the Moghul emperor made him –hold your breath-- his ambassador to Britain. His ostensible private agenda was to make pleas to the queen about his pension.

He died at Stapleton then a village to the north east of Bristol on the 27 th September 1833 of meningitis and is buried in Arnos Vale Cemetery in southern Bristol.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vioNEmh3wh0/Ti473I94XoI/AAAAAAAAEeM/ebPA_jC4HYQ/s1600/220px-Ram_Mohan_Roy.jpg

A street 'Raja Rammohan Way' has recently been named in memory.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IhOJDrqN1Yk/Ti47yCV-c4I/AAAAAAAAEeI/VmDDX_AdXik/s1600/imagesCAO1EF3T.jpg

"Japanese right-wing and the rape of Nanking"

Hitesh BrahmBhatt

When you have quoted this incident then you should close with Punishment given to Jap PM but Jap emperior was exonerrated by a Bong War Crime Judge Radha Binod Pal.

"A memorial in his honor is prominent in the Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo.

In 1966, the Emperor of Japan conferred upon Pal the First Class of the Order of the Sacred Treasure when he visited Japan. He remarked that he had admired Japan from a young age for being the only Asian nation that "stood up against the West."

When Japanese Prime minister Shinzo Abe visited India ,in August 2007 he remember how Pal had saved his grandfather Nobusuke Kishi, guilty of war crimes, and the Japanese Emperor, from the gallows. (Japanese Prime Minister Hideki Tojo , who sanctioned the attack on Pearl Harbour, was however hanged . Hideki Tojo left a haiku written in Pal's honour before going to the gallows) .

Pal would bow to the Japanese benches every time he entered the court, irritating all. This was despite , that the number of Indian combatants killed in World War II exceeded the numbers of those of most of the other countries directly involved. And Indians soldiers of Subash Chandra Bose's INA were tricked into digging 650 kilometers of tunnels in Rabaul-- a task worse than death itself. And all of them were eaten for food--except for a few who escaped into the dense jungles..

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe met with Pal's son, Prasanta, in Kolkata . They chatted for half an hour at a city hotel.

Pal is also worshipped at the Kao Kannon temple at Atami. The ashes of Hideki Tojo is preserved here."

Last but not the least Bong Subash Bose also wanted for similar war crime Right?For ditching POW for digging Tunnel of Rabaul?So he remained as an unknown Gumnami Baba for rest of his life Right??

Looks like that both this Bongs where from Upper caste only?Stooging is in their blood?

 #115

>>So all his fight against Sati System was just an drama...Or is that such system never been practicesed in India?

some of this sanghis are just too lazy or too stupid. that's why there are pictures on this wiki article. read it like a picture book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)

This cleansing created such a mess that ppl like Vidyasagar and Ram Mohan Rai among others had to dedicate their whole lives to really clean it up.

Have you ever wonder why parivar never remembers these great gentlemen?
kishoredasmunshi, Kolkatta

Can you tell us how Ram Mohan Roy became "Raja Ram Mohan Roy"...In human mankind it would be first of this kind incident that a own mother who filed maximim law suit against him for distorting religious  fact....So close and So near to British that Bristol-England has street named after him....Even have got Statues in England named after this British stooge....

So all his fight against Sati System was just an drama...Or is that such system  never been practicesed in India?

Better call him Opium Raja because he worked as Munshi (Accountant) for British in there Opiun farm.....Cool Bong...He was

Most of the Corrupt From SC/STs, OBCs: Ashis Nandy
Jaipur | New Delhi | Jan 26, 2013

 

Jaipur Literature Festival (JFL) has a penchant for courting controversy. Ashis Nandy was ostensibly playing to the gallery when he remarked at a panel discussion that “Most corrupt people come from OBC, SC and ST communities”.. The eminent sociologist-turned-author was unprofessional when he failed to substantiate his thesis through empirical data..According to experts, no caste-based sociological study has ever been made. to support his sweeping generalization..
Corruption is endemic , un- related to castes or creeds.One knows of either small crooks or big crooks. Scams involving bureaucrats , big businessmen , the political class et al get suppressed irrespective of caste affiliations. Nandy’s naivete at JLF’s international forum has encouraged powerful sections to get political mileage out of the JLF’s imbroglio by ignoring their own credentials and track records.Ironically, the benefits of reservation instead of percolating to the deprived sections, are cornered by the high and mighty,
Nandy has much to explain for his offensive remarks under cover of Freedom of Speech and Expression.He must be challenged intellectually and condemned unequivocally. Let Jaipur Police not get trapped in political sloganeering.
 

A K Saxena ( A retired civil servant)
www.aksaxena.co.in
blog.aksaxena.co.in
 

 #112

Gurudev here is happy to make up his own laws in defense of douchebags accusing those making less than 2$ a day of mega-scams erupting like fire-crackers everyday.

To each their own.

 Looks like Mr Nandi's remarks, have touched a raw nerve. Human qualities are not decided by ethnicity. Thats a self evident truth. There are high caste thieves and also so called low caste saints.  How ever , the hysteria that just an opinion of one person, mr Nandi , has sparked in some commentators here like Hitesh or Mayawati in India, is a spectacle in itself.

W.R.T. #107

I think parivar should bring brits or better germans to rule India : ) they should go the whole hog, no halfsies. true blue "aryan" rule. you hardly see any blonds with blue eyes in north. south you cant tell brahmins  from other castes. there is a precedent in their history. during pal regime in bengal, deemed unclean samaj was cleansed by importing brahmins from north. That was their only job, cleanse the blood and "improve the race" which resulted in kuleen system(bhadralok).

This cleansing created such  a mess that ppl like Vidyasagar and Ram Mohan Rai among others had to dedicate their whole lives to really clean it up.

Have you ever wonder why parivar never remembers these great gentlemen?

If you are living under a rock and didn't hear about endless stream of scams from Bofors to BAE Systems, Rajat Gupta and Rajaratnam, Adarsh society, Spectrum Auctions, Reliance Gas, here is a dishonorable judge,

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2010/stories/20030523002904600.htm

Bhadralok my ass, get with the program!

Clean administration in West Bengal, being free from corruption? What a grotesque thought! Jyoti Basu's son Chandan started was a clerk in Krishna Glass Factory. He later became multimillionaire, what more as a clean contribution can we expect from communist CM? The state has gone down the drain while 200,000 crores of ruppes were taken as overdraft from the RBI. Where have that money gone? Who benefited by that? The state's people from the marins have become poorer.

Bhadralok honesty is a fiction.   

There was a teastall in Asansole railway station  manned and managed by Biswanath Das, who was a former MP from Burdwan district. After his as  term  MP was over, he started the teastall. That saw him through for a living.  Biswanath was a scheduled caste. He died in penury.

Do we hear surmon on corruption from Nandy? 

 #103

Bhagwat probably said "Hindu Asmita, Brahmins rule, especially the Chitpavans and Muslims suck!"

and Unfortunately what the People, the Media the Cameras, the Recorders "Misinterpreted" was,

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, ....

But, then you don't really have to wait for the Sanghi to speak before knowing what he wants to say!

 If Indians are so enamored of being ruled and humiliated by racist a**holes, why don't they just bring in the Brits, Japs and Germans? 

At least, the trains will run on time!

Why cant they just stick to discussing literature at the 'litfest'?

Yadha Raja thadha Praja!!

We are being ruled by Brits and their stooges.So majority of us become as corrupt as our handlers are.

Anthathma Pravishantiye asamputhi mupasthe...Materialism starts with worshipping man-made things. They live in darkness.

Ashish Nady should have said that catagorizing people(caste system) itself is the most corrupt practice in the world. Until we change our narrowmindedness, unless we shed the prejudices carefully instilled in us through our corrupt education, we are bound to live in the darkness.

Revolution should take place in our minds and society as a whole. Let us hope for a better society.