>>"My obsessive presence in Outlook Have Your Say must now come to an  end ..." - R Saroja

what happened to your study on CAIR ? you were supposed to read & comeback.

looks like you are running away as she was cornered on facts. Just 4 recent  examples.

1. ramki conclusively demolished your theory that muslims have higher feetility rates as they are poorer by giving data on Kerala.you do not have an answer.

2. I proved that person who  was hailed by you as one with "commendable spirit as a human being " is a closet jihadi who has helped LET fire at indian soldiers in kashmir. infact he still continues to support that organisation. do you still standby your earlier statement on him?

3. you also said this on madhu kishwar "She taught us how in the name of being anti-corrupt Shourie was pushing hindutva ideology." which is an outright lie. Give some examples & proof for this statement or withdraw & apologise.

4. WIAN asked you about muslim rioters in mumbai. you do not have an answer.

Loosk like your obsessive presence hear has to end as you have painted yourselves into a corner with your lies & dont have an answer anymore.

Saroja,

Farewell my friend! You brought a breath of fresh air to these stuffy cobwebs.

>> "My obsessive presence in Outlook Have Your Say must now come to an end though I will come now and then " - R Saroja

R Saroja,

You are a nice person. In ways more than one, it feels good that you are leaving before the addictive insanity of these forums could consume you. 

 Farewell everyone especially yhwh,

My obsessive presence in Outlook Have Your Say must now come to an end though I will come now and then 

The Irreverent Indian>>mine was absolutely brazen and devoid of the subtlety you used. When you mentioned "people with no family", we all get whom you were referring to

I was referring to single rootless men of no particular political persuation. But of course Saroja the Oracle might have been at play. In this thread atleast I had kept all smartness out of my writings. I have written that many hindus suffered because they helped muslims, have you not seen that? To be fair, one colleague of mine (who was associated with PUDR) when he claimed in Dec 1992 after the first phase of riotting that overwhelming victims were muslims, I was sceptical. Don't think that there is some well defined work waiting to be done and activists just go and do their work. I was trapped in my sister's place when the second stage of riotting started. Since in MidDay some telephone numbers of organizations was given, I called them up, collected old clothes etc from my sister's society and just landed there,It so happenned that the people of this organization also worked in the slum in another part of Bombay where we used to take adult literacy classes. So Bombay is very small indeed.  I was assigned to work with S and we went to a particular slum ( a regularised) in Goregaon. where we did door to door survey of how many prople were displaced. A typical scenario - A one room flat, some women bunched up in kitchen, cooking, and few sitting on doorsteps. Men were sleeping all over the floor. At night, women would be sleeping all over and men were standing watch outside. These people had come from all over Bombay to their relatives in safer locales. Yes there were hindu houses. They were clearly frightened. The muslims paraded them saying see how safe these hindus are with us. The next day I was a veteran. We started with another slum in the forest land. I was assigned two school girls about 15-16 years old.We had to do a survey. We were walking through some isolated spot when suddenly out of nowhere we were surrounded by 15-20 young men carrying poles and shouting Jai Shri Ram. I went into a state of shock but these girls were happily chatting with those guys, It turned out that those guys were savings bank agents working in the slums and for their security they were moving in a group. They told us about places where there had been attack on Muslims. We were the first to visit the placeafter the assault, The muslim houses were completely razed and levelled. No one knew where the muslims had gone etc. Now I have an extremely poor sense of direction. I was not able to lead other group members to that place the next day. They even doubted the existence of such a place. About 20 days later oneof the residents of that place recognized me and thus the victims were able to depose before Indian People's Human Rights Tribunal.....Thus begins the story though not much of a story becuse if I have to capture the spirit of that time, I will have to capture formlessness somehow. Then there were gangs (three of them), how people were resettled next to a hindu basti, there was the great fire of 8th March 1993,which occpied front page for a couple of days, which wiped out 300-400 hindu huts, and in newspapers one Rashmi (hindu name) became Reshma (muslim name), but here there was no accusation ever against the muslims, but after seeing the newspaper reports how Anand Margis from Madhya Pradesh descended here to help hindus and after a few days how the hindus chased them out seeing that they were up to some mischief, then how many of the victims who were to depose before the commission were warned off the night before and how the resettlement process culminated in finding employment for the people, It is along story which has never been told but this is not the place, Then when everything looked fine, in a Kafkaesque fashion, municipality came and demolished everything. Now skyscrapers adorn the locale of all the above drama. 

I thank everyone. What has come out of the thread is something infinitely better than what went into it. For 20 years I could not write, Now I can write reams and reams..

Ramki,

>> How about say Arabs?

Saudis are no better than you or the VHP, but the discussion was about Europeans.

 Anwaar >> Large scale immigration within a short period of time of difficult to integrate Muslims will produce difficulties for a generation or two. Europeans are not too tolerant of other races, and they persecuted Jews for over 1000 years,

While I fully agree with this observation, a quick question - How about say Arabs? Will Saudi Arabia or Iran or other gulf nations, rich in petro dollars agree to say take some 10-20 million indian (infidel hindus !!!!) who are guest workers and give them full citizenship? Do you think Arabs and Iranians are tolerant enough to say even have 10-20% of population as non semite polytheists? (I dont even want to talk about pakistan taking back the few million sindihindus they drove out in 1947,even satan wont want to live in that country)

I am not trying to find fault here with Europeans or Arabs. And I feel that Breivik should be quickly put to death. But I seriously feel that globalism and inter-community integration is of the most overhyped, overrated virtues of our times. People always find it easy to live with those whom they can relate to in terms of cultural values and living practices and this is always the case. Multiculturalism is one of those grand ideas of our times that is no different from marxism. Good in theory but falls apart in practice.

 R. Saroja,

FYI, my comment 113/D-74 was just a dose of sarcasm, apologise if it hurted you anyway. 

For others- the point i am trying to make is the foolishness of an army of libtards in india who blame every evil on one religion (hinduism) and on a group of people who have a certain ideology (right of center hindu activists)

 R. Saroja >> Actually I am enjoying my life in Bombay and my neighbours.

Surely given the horrible misgovernance by the secular, left oriented UPA Govt for last 8 years, 95% of Indians are suffering, but there is always the 1%ers who are thriving in this corrupt mafia rule of UPA, wondering if you are among them. Surely I am happiest person if anyone is enjoying life, but then you should vote for UPA/Cong in 2014 at least we need a namesake opposition in next parliament.

 R.Saroja >> Muslims are not only voting for "Monster Modi", but even contesting on BJP tickets.

The ordinary Muslim , or infact any ordinary person on the street in India is always practical and does not want to waste his/her life to fight the agenda of some left liberal zealots. Two plain facts for above are:

Fact 1 - Gujarat has been a extremely riot prone state and has a long history of intense communal riots and destruction during the golden era of Sec(ick)ular congress rule. Case in point is 1969 riots, much more violent and destructive than 2002 riots. 

Fact 2 - Whatever maybe Modi doing in 2002 Feb/march, the plain fact is with such a history of communal riots, the last 10 years of Gujarat has seen a record - not even one major communal riot since 2002 March, a record which could not be held even by secular, humanist, Congress ruled Maharashtra or AP or Karnataka. And whom should we give credit for riot free gujarat of 10 years? To Prathiba Patil? To AK Antony? Or to Robert vadhra ? You decide !

Fact 3- Gujarat's Muslims live and die by enterprise and they want a government that supports freedom to do business and needless to say Modi has done exactly what they wanted.

I repeat again, I am not pro Modi (like many others), I am only telling some obvious facts here which of course left liberals dislike but then India is a diverse country, if you dont like all this, move to your paradise - the Taliban State of Kashmir or the Marxist Bengal and enjoy !

 R. Saroja >> Muslims are poorer so their fertility is correspondingly higher.

Can you give solid data to substantiate such sweeping generalizations? 

FYI,  in Kerala - an other wise progressive state, thanks to overseas remittance economy, Muslims have same or marginally higher per capita income than Hindus. But fertility rate among Muslims is higher, and that is why population growth in Kerala is so different among the 3 major communities - Christian population growth is lower than state average, Hindu population growth is marginally lower than state average and Muslim population growth is higher than state average.

FYI - Kashmir and Lakshadweep are two of India's Muslim majority states, both have per capita income much higher than 90% hindu states like Chattisgarh and Orissa and yet population growth of both these places is higher than national average.
 

FYI - Muslims are less educated (relatively) than Hindus and maybe less richer because, the states where Muslims are found in big numbers are the most backward, poorly ruled and impoverished states in India. Over 50% of Muslims in India live in 3 states - UP, Bihar and WBengal and these three are the most underdeveloped and impoverished states of India. Kashmir and Lakshadweep, are muslim majority and have much higher standard of living compared to many hindu states but only 4% of India's muslims live in these 2 places ! So stop the myth that India discriminates Muslims , infact it may be the other way around !

FYI  - Regarding polygamy, let me clarify that due to sex ratio, none of India's communities can support polygamy on a big scale, only some 4-5% of Indian men are polygamous. But fact is the marginally higher polygamy among Hindus is because some 10% of Hindus are adivasis and it is well known that polygamy is somewhat prevalent among some sections of adivasis of India (again to do with the very strong female to male ratio).

So a gentle suggestion, kindly do not make some statements based on wrong facts. India is a very diverse and vast country and for every statement you make, you can actually dig and find a counter example.

>> I had suspected that the snake is back.

Typical jihadi SOP , taught by CAIR. Get personal & call names when cornered on facts. Your  Madrasa teacher will be proud of you .

But you still have not answered the question - what is a civil rights organisation doing when its director actually  fires machine gun against army of a foriegn country? Here is the link for you once again See page 5 , point 15 of  http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/111.pdf

No amount of name calling will change the fact that ismail royer  of your CAIR, went alongwith LET & fired against indian soldiers in Kashmir in May 2000  using machine guns , when he was still a director of  CAIR.  He laso helped LET in sourcing , recruiting , training , funding many jihadis to fight in Kashmir, Afghanistan, chechnya. Royer has admitted to all these crimes in his plea.

>>Where have you been hiding for so long?

Good to know you were missing the solid kicks I used to rain on your backside regularly. Dont worry I am back & I will make it up.

Commendable spirit as a human being indeed. After all ,the life of a indian soldier for a jihadi has zero value.( the wives & children of soldiers killed by jehadis in kashmir border will be deliriously happy hearing tweedledee pontificate on the resident namak haraams commendable spirit as a human being  )

 YHWH,

Thank you for your link on operation Gladio. I just finished  watching the bbc documentary www.youtube.com/watch twice. I was aware of questions raised by Bologna Railway Station Bombing.That stood as an isolated incident in my memory. Scary.

Irreverent & Whatsinaname

I shall repond to you later at night.

>> I was volunteering with an organization working in slums. In the refugee camp that came up there about 90% of victims were muslims and 100% of rioters were hindus.

There were rioters in the refugee camp?

Where were all the Muslim rioters? Were they out there on the streets, sending Hindu refugees to other camps, where seculars ostensibly did not deem fit to work?

Irreverent,

>>>> "They both fight police excesses. "
>> I have spent three years in US. I have found the US police amongst the most professional and fair-minded.
 

Indeed US police are professional. That does not mean minorities and poor can be complacent. America has a cenury old tradition of having advocacy groups fighting for the civil rights of minorities and the poor, including the Jewish Defence League, B'nai Brith, NAACP,  CORE, COFO, SNCC, SCLC, MFDP, Italian-American Civil Rights League, Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund and several others.

Shankar,

>>  exposes their namk haraami.

That confirms who you are. I had suspected that the snake is back. Where have you been hiding for so long?

Ghai,

>>>> It is sad that 219 Kashmiri Pandits and over 50,000 Kashmiri Muslims have been killed since 1989.

>> Source : Fai's Data .

Just check yourself. It is all over the internet. But when did facts ever matter to you?

>> "They both fight police excesses. " - Anwaar

I have spent three years in US. I have found the US police amongst the most professional and fair-minded. As an Indian who can be easily mistaken for a Pakistani, and on frequent travel, I have not faced any discrimination. Nor have I heard of any of my colleagues from India and Pakistan recount one. Moreover, justice in US is very swift and heavyily penalizes wilful wrong-doing. I can safely claim that we Indians are more racist and abusive of powers, compared to the Americans.

CAIR's claims of fighting the police excesses in USA sounds very bogus.

>> "Your posting is simply offensive without one iota of kindness. " - R Saroja

Yes, it was. The only difference was that mine was absolutely brazen and devoid of the subtlety you used. When you mentioned "people with no family", we all get whom you were referring to. Similarly, Hindutva is good bogey-band for the sickulars to kick the Hindus in a sort-of-disguised manner.

If one were to read the reams written by the self-styled sickulars, it would seem that Hindutva is an all-pervasive Hindu bigotry in response to Islamist fascism. I am not denying the fact that Hindus have their own share of bigots, but to feign pretensions like: all rioters were Hindus, Muslims are always at the receiving end etc. is a gross mis-representation.

What is CAIR ? Anyway I will look up "

Better check with CAIR guru .

 Anwaar

>>Another nitwit smearer!

for a jihadi any one who exposes their namk haraami is a nitwit.

>> Some officials were convicted in their individual capacities for crimes commited over 10 years ago.

not just some officials , Ismail royer was the  communications director of CAIR , when he joined hands with LET to fight against indian soldiers in kashmir. infact in May 2000, he was very much an employee of CAIR , when he shot at Indian positions in kashmir , using a machine gun along with LET . See page 5 , point 15 of   http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/111.pdf

Infact this document documents the numerous top office bearers of CAIR who were caught for terrorism related charges till now.

Do the crimes of CAIR jihadis become time barred after 10 years ? It is ten years after Godhra , but that has not stopped you from talking about it.

>>CAIR's members are American Muslims of several different nationalities, including Palestinians, Chechnyans and people from POK. They have their own agendas which the CAIR does not share.

wah by wah..A director of CAIR fires against Indian troops in kashmir , when he is still very much a member of CAIR but that is own agenda as per closet jihadis, Taquiya at work again.

>>This old news is touted by different hate websites, copying from each other,

does not matter how old the news is .Read the above link , which is fully indexed & referenced ., mostly from government documents. Conclsively blows up your claim that CAIR is just a civil rights organisation.

 Irreverent Indian >>>> Your rants are not supported by the empiricals. The community most (in)famous for violent, regressive and kill-happy people also happens to top the practice of polygamy and highest fertility rates

You do not seems to have understood what I had written, though my writing had the subtlety of a sledgehammer. You are implying that muslims as a people practise polygamy and have highest fertility rates and are kill-happy ,violent and regressive. 

Fact 1; There is no difference in the fertility rate between hindus and muslims if you compare them according to their economic status. Muslims are poorer so their fertility is correspondingly higher.

Fact 2. Polygamy is marginally higher among hindus though it is illegal.

I was asked by someone in Madras towards end of January whether there will be muslim retaliation. I could not imagine these cowered people to retaliate. But someone may attack in their name. It has happenned again and again. 

Your posting is simply offensive without one iota of kindness. People are sensitive irreverrent. What did you gain. I posted my response to soak away some hurt.

 YHWH,

OK then we will make fairy tales and bring them to life.

Actually I am enjoying my life in Bombay and my neighbours. All the kids in my building love me.  Ha Ha ( You may envy me)

 Irreverent Indian

>>There are other approaches that I have not mentioned, but would like to take up like "Truth and Reconciliation" etc. "

Between whom? As far as Gujarat is concerned, it is already happening, much to the distaste of self-styled sickulars. Muslims are not only voting for "Monster Modi", but even contesting on BJP tickets. People of Gujarat understand that the scars of 2002 will not heal, but there is no point in scratching the wounds.

As for the rest of the country, it is a futile effort. Neither the sickulars, nor the communals, will let that happen. Who wants to kill the goose that lays golden eggs?

You do not understand the meaning of Truth and Reconciliation. "I want to forget don't remind" me brings neither truth nor healing. I am reminded of something from my school days "Kshama shobhati us bhujang ko jiske paas vish ho" (Forgiveness adorns only such a snake as has got poison). First wait for court ruling in the ongoing cases. The example that I can give in Indian context is when the daughter of Lalit Maken met the assassin of her parents in Jail. Lalit Maken was named in several reports in the wake of Delhi pogrom.

Since I am one of the sickulers I want to know what golden egg I got. I thought I had taken time off my regular life and paid partly out of my pocket which at that time I could really ill afford. I was there for less than 4 months. Many have been there for years. I won't have any upstart maligning the best of our culture and society.

>> Babri would not have happened if the police had opened fire at those bigots

That is more true than you realize. They had stationed RAF(Rapid Action Force) outside Ayodhya but did not call them in. RAF is very well trained. Afterwards they worked wonders in Bombay with just lathis, no firearms.

>>Yes. That is true. I was young then, but could sense the heady rabidness for a temple. And, the government simply let it happen!! Only a moron would have bought the argument that a gathering of thousands of hot-headed rabids will be a peaceful passing. If the police had been allowed to thrash them back to the caves, things would have been so much better.

There was a petition in Supreme court praying for cancellation of shilanyas or whatever fearing demolition. SC took an undertaking from Kalyan Singh(then UP CM) and allowed it. Later Kalyan Singh got 1 day imprisonment. SC could not see what is obvious to you.

And yes, so fancy of you to think that all rioters were Hindus!!

I was volunteering with an organization working in slums. In the refugee camp that came up there about 90% of victims were muslims and 100% of rioters were hindus.The demography was different in other places. These rioters did not belong to any particular political formation. They were caught with the frenzy of the moment. What about the 10% victims who were hindus? They were the ones who were sheltering muslims disguising them as hindus and refused to identify the muslims amongst themselves. You can look up SriKrishna Commission report www.sabrang.com/srikrish/sri%20main.htm

Irreverent Indian

>>There are other approaches that I have not mentioned, but would like to take up like "Truth and Reconciliation" etc. "

Between whom? As far as Gujarat is concerned, it is already happening, much to the distaste of self-styled sickulars. Muslims are not only voting for "Monster Modi", but even contesting on BJP tickets. People of Gujarat understand that the scars of 2002 will not heal, but there is no point in scratching the wounds.

As for the rest of the country, it is a futile effort. Neither the sickulars, nor the communals, will let that happen. Who wants to kill the goose that lays golden eggs?

You do not understand the meaning of Truth and Reconciliation. "I want to forget don't remind" me brings neither truth nor healing. I am reminded of something from my school days  "Kshama shobhati us bhujang ko jiske paas vish ho" (Forgiveness adorns only such a snake as has got poison). First wait for court ruling in the ongoing cases. The example that I can give in Indian context is when the daughter of Lalit Maken met the assassin of her parents in Jail. Lalit Maken was named in several reports in the wake of Delhi pogrom.

Since I am one of the sickulers I want to know what golden egg I got. I thought I had taken time off my regular life and paid partly out of my pocket which at that time I could really ill afford. I was there for less than 4 months. I won't have any upstart maligning the best of our culture and society.

>>  Babri would not have happened if the police had opened fire at those bigots

That is more true than you realize. They had stationed RAF(Rapid Action Force) outside Ayodhya but did not call them in. RAF is very well trained. Afterwards they worked wonders in Bombay with just lathis, no firearms.

>>Yes. That is true. I was young then, but could sense the heady rabidness for a temple. And, the government simply let it happen!! Only a moron would have bought the argument that a gathering of thousands of hot-headed rabids will be a peaceful passing. If the police had been allowed to thrash them back to the caves, things would have been so much better.

There was a petition in Supreme court praying for cancellation of shilanyas or whatever fearing demolition. SC took an undertaking from Kalyan Singh(then UP CM) and allowed it. Later Kalyan Singh got 1 day imprisonment. SC could not see what is obvious to you.

 And yes, so fancy of you to think that all rioters were Hindus!!

I was volunteering with an organization working in slums. In the refugee camp that came up there about 90% of victims were muslims and 100% of rioters were hindus.The demography was different in other places. These rioters did not belong to any particular political formation. They were caught with the frenzy of the moment. What about the 10% victims who were hindus? They were the ones who were sheltering muslims disguising them as hindus and refused to identify the muslims amongst themselves. You can look up SriKrishna Commission report  www.sabrang.com/srikrish/sri%20main.htm

 Saroja 

Oh Democracy. The one that Plato finds revolting. The democracy that Aristoltle said would create only tyrants. Ok, that was direct democracy and what we follow is indirect democracy. By the people, for the people bs by a demogogue who almost destroyed his own country and whose black emancipation was nothing more than a political decision. Enough said. 

The present representative democracy is nothing more than a Realism. Realism means there is no PEACE in the world but only TRUCE. A Hindu in Jammu complains that the government is led by Muslims and his rights are trampled. A Hindu in Punjab complains Harbhajan Singh will be promoted a DSP not only because he is cricketer but he is a Sikh, A muslim complains all the weapons and  missiles  are  named after Hindu Gods and not Muslim heroes. Do you think this is democracy? No, hell no! Democracy means we give people an illusion and maintain the TRUCE. 

<<I know what happens as a result of politics of hate as happened in Germany >>

Why is there a Hate of politics? Do you think we can kill the hate or do  you hate the HATE? I understand that you think ww2 happened because of French unjust repariation. How about the Otto Bismark and French repariation in the Prussia- French war. The hate had started right in 19 century and French did what what was done to them.

Nuremberg trials didn't kill the hate. CIA saved NAZI criminals, more than a 1000 of them. Please read Operation Gladio (wiki). Please understand that most of the American overseas military bases are in GERMANY. They are there to maintain the TRUCE.  

<<I do not like the righteous Gandhi of his My Expts but the one of later years>>

It was Gandhi who boasted in 1940 that his non violence can defeat Hitler and wanted Jews not to leave their country. A reported advice by Hitler to some British Lord - Kill Gandhi and if that doesn't suffice, kill 100 members of Congress and if that doesn't suffice keep on killing it the order is restored. 

It is sad that 219 Kashmiri Pandits and over 50,000 Kashmiri Muslims have been killed since 1989,' Faruki

 Source : Fai's Data .

>>  I am a member of both CAIR and ACLU. They both fight police excesses.

Why not only ACLU.? What is CAIR ? Anyway I will look up

 YHWH

Show me a better way. Belief in democracy or in democratic practises is an article of faith for me. I know what happens as a result of politics of hate as happened in Germany or what happens when ideology takes over as in Soviet Union. I do not like the righteous Gandhi of his My Expts but the one of later years. 

Saroja,

>> this sounds suspiciously like what RSS says when their ex are caught in terrorist activities.

You are obviously unawre how quickly the FBI would clamp down on any Muslim organization that has any shady connections. Instead it is CAIR which is after the FBI! Only this week, they got the FBI to end their staff education program that was run by some Islamophobes.

>> You should be strengthening institutions there and not undermining them.

This is rubbish! I am a member of both CAIR and ACLU. They both fight police excesses. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

 <<All loose talk. Please go through>>

Saroja, you are living in Gandhian fancy land of make believe world. Come out of it.

 >>Some officials were convicted in their individual capacities for crimes commited over 10 years ago. CAIR's members are American Muslims of several different nationalities, including Palestinians, Chechnyans and people from POK. They have their own agendas which the CAIR does not share.

I am sorry Anwaar, this sounds suspiciously like what RSS says when their ex are caught in terrorist activities.

>>successful in taking on newspapers, radio and TV stations, Congressmen, the FBI and state and local police! 

And local police in US? Anwaar you are in a democracy in US. You should be strengthening institutions there and not undermining them. Here for example Binayak Sen was in jail unjustly in my opinion. The way he came out ,the whole process has strengthened or made more humane our system. 

 >>who funds & continues to supports CAIR today, even after knowing that CAIR officials have pleaded guilty , haven been prosecuted & are rotting in jail for recruiting , training , funding LET terrorists

I would not remotely support anyone who funds directly or indirectly any terrorist activity anywhere. But let him respond for himself. How did you come to know of these facts? Even I am called all sorts of name including by yourself .

Anwaar>>But I do not agree with Ms Kishwar on everything.

But instead of saying that you do not agree with her on everything, why do you not criticize her? She is abrasive, can be intolerant of criticism and opiniated, but she still is humane. Like she was all wrong about Anna movement.(No I am not defending the midnight crackdown), and was needlessly coming down on all who had reservations against Anna. Infact many people are unaware of her strong anti communal background.

Shankar,

>>  CAIR officials have pleaded guilty , haven been prosecuted & are rotting in jail for recruiting ,

Another nitwit smearer! Some officials were convicted in their individual capacities for crimes commited over 10 years ago. CAIR's members are American Muslims of several different nationalities, including Palestinians, Chechnyans and people from POK. They have their own agendas which the CAIR does not share. This old news is touted by different hate websites, copying from each other, but the main reason why Zionists and Saffronites are so hateful of CAIR is because of its being so spectacularly successful in taking on newspapers, radio and TV stations, Congressmen, the FBI and state and local police!

>> "Anwaar, I commend your spirit as a human being

Lol. tweedledum & tweedledee scratching each others back.

This is the same anwaar who funds & continues to supports CAIR today, even after knowing that CAIR officials have pleaded guilty , haven been prosecuted & are rotting in jail for recruiting , training , funding LET  terrorists and for sending them to fire against Indian soldiers in Kashmir.

Commendable spirit as a human being indeed. How many of us mere mortals can do such namak haraami on our soldiers?

Saroja,

I have great respect for Madhu Kishwar. My daughter spent one of her summer vacations in India as an intern at Manushi. But I do not agree with Ms Kishwar on everything.

Have a good evening.

 And why do you people attack a person like Teesta ? Do you realize that almost single handedly she and independently Mukul Sinha in Gujarat have for the first time ensured that justice for riot victims for the first time in India may arrive. Their entire adult life so far not theirs. Everyone who speaks against anything that is comfortable to us  obviously has a political agenda,

63 D60

A.S.Samra took over police at every level listened to and acted on our complaints. We had RPF protection later on

It should read RAF(Rapid Action Force)

 Then why do you call me "Sickular"?

 I think all you guys are all young. Madhu Kishwar educated a whole generation of us on the meaning of secularism, meaning of Gandhi, how not to be alienated from our Indian roots etc. It was because of her that I call myself Hindu . Damn it I am a scientist by profession, I am agnostic since I was 12. She taught us how in the name of being anti-corrupt Shourie was pushing hindutva ideology. And if she today attcks activists like Sarabhai or Medha Patkar, at least listen to her, 

Anwaar,

One has to be honest, Congress has not practsed secularism in this country, It has practised 'soft communalsm which has made it easy for hard core to arrive.  

>> " I mean she is what Irreverent refers as sickular without understandind anything. " - R Saroja

A clarification is due here: I have lots of respect for Madhu Kishwar, and have rarely disagreed with her. I will call her SECULAR, not "Sickular". And, I agree that Anwaar and I are getting into what many will call "bickering like small kids". We would have made for a great couple. Marry me Anwaar!?!!

>> "...and to compare it with Tiananmen Square where 2000 to 3000 people were killed is just stupid. "

I agree it is stupid. Someone else made that comparison, not me. 

 Guys, apologize me for all abuse that I am going to shower on you.

YHWH,

>>do you think the rest of Indians should let it go.

All loose talk. Please go through this www.manushi.in/articleList.php  Instead of running anything and everything down, do something positive. You rep of hindus and Anwaaar rep of muslims,, rubbish

Saroja,

I did not attack Madhu Kishwar; I criticized her article. You certainly have a right to a different opinion on her article.

Anwaar 

From the link irreverent supplied, I found this

 >> you attacked the article by Madhu Kishwar as a summary of smear arguments.

It is obviously a smear sheet. I don't need to give a point by point rebuttal on it. If you think it is a balanced article, I won't demand an explanation from you about why you think so.

In my opinion, a lot of loose talk is going on. Whether or not you agree with Madhu Kishwar (She can be abrasive), she has to be taken seriously. I mean she is what Irreverent refers as sickular without understandind anything. Both your understanding is shallow and you keep bickering like small kids. Infact about Kashmir issue I had posted link from her journal expecting it to be balanced and nuanced,www.manushi.in/articleList.php

Irreverent,

>>  irrelevant rabble-rousing of "permissible genocide", even on irrelevant forums.

Whenever I see you writing hateful posts, I remember your proposing "permissible genocide". I have never brought it up in response to your civilized comments, which unfortunately are few.

>>  you who want Kashmiri secessionists to be handled with compassion, but jump in delirious joy when police rampage a peaceful gathering at Ramlila Grounds in their sleep.

Rubbish! Denouncing genocide is not the same thing as wanting to treat secessionists with compassion. And there was no joy about police intervention in Ramlila Grounds, only a reality check to say that the police did not kill anyone, the one lady who died was crushed  in the stampede, and to compare it with Tiananmen Square where 2000 to 3000 people were killed is just stupid. Your arguments and comparisions are bizarre.

YHWH,

>> This is what Kashmiris are doing to Pundits .

That must be condemned without proposing a genocide. It is sad that 219 Kashmiri Pandits and over 50,000 Kashmiri Muslims have been killed since 1989, but how can you rush to the defence of someone who calls genocide permissible, and then say that you are not his apologist? You bring in other mass killings, but we are not talking of any mass killings that have taken place, we are talking of someone's calling genocide a permissible solution to a stone pelting mob. Mass killings may be your favorite subject, but we were not talking about it.

>> "The two links you posted do not exonerate you in any way." - Anwaar

Exonerate me of what? It is you, whose irrelevant rabble-rousing of "permissible genocide", even on irrelevant forums, turn up like a wet fire-cracker. 

Moreover, it exposes the bigotry of the sickulars like you who want Kashmiri secessionists to be handled with compassion, but jump in delirious joy when police rampage a peaceful gathering at Ramlila Grounds in their sleep. The same bunch of jokers demand more bullets should have been fired in Gujarat and army wasn't deployed early enough!! All sense of consistency vanish when they have to defend the Islamist fascists.

 ANWAAR, DALLAS

 <<If it means killing an entire generation of Kashmiri youths, so be it>>

This is what Kashmiris are doing to Pundits after they expelled them and wouldn't allow them back. If the same thing happens to Muslims in Gujarat and Hindus don't allow Muslims back to their homes, wouldn't you call for weeding out the recalcitrant elements. 

I am no apologist for Irr. Indian and he can answer you.

But the matter of the fact is that can we allow a majority to be unjust and find their reasoning for their actions in being a majority. 

Didn't the killing happened in allied Strategic Bombing in WW2, NATO bombing of Bosnia, NATO bombing of Kosovo. 

If Nazis in majority in Germany would cause a holocaust or Serbs do the same to Bosniaks after Srebenica, they will face the consequences. If Kashmiris Muslims are going for ethnic cleansing and they won't take the Pundits back, do you think the rest of Indians should let it go. 

Irreverent,

>> Anwaar raised the spectre of "genocide" in his response to posters advocating army retaliation.

This is a malicious lie. My references to "genocide" were only in response to your post on permissible genocide.

>> For other part of the discussion chain, we need to search just on "genocide".

The two links you posted do not exonerate you in any way. In fact they make you look even worse. I proudly stand by all my posts in those two links. I don't know why you posted those two links when they actually make you look worse!

>> "genocide" was a recurring word on parallel articles/ forums.

This again is false. You can't defend yourself with falsehoods.

>>  It is my stated position that no one - irrespective of cause or religion - should be allowed to dare law and order. Why should Kashmir be treated with kids' gloves.

Getting on the soapbox hardly behooves you at this time.

YHWH,

>>  he meant killing Kashmiri Muslims to bring in the order.

But six weeks earlier Irreverent had also said, "If it means killing an entire generation of Kashmiri youths, so be it!".

>> "See the chain of effort that I made.news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx You have not responded to that."

You expect me respond to every comments of yours? Definitely not for literature lessons.

>> "There are other approaches that I have not mentioned, but would like to take up like "Truth and Reconciliation" etc. "

Between whom? As far as Gujarat is concerned, it is already happening, much to the distaste of self-styled sickulars. Muslims are not only voting for "Monster Modi", but even contesting on BJP tickets. People of Gujarat understand that the scars of 2002 will not heal, but there is no point in scratching the wounds.

As for the rest of the country, it is a futile effort. Neither the sickulars, nor the communals, will let that happen. Who wants to kill the goose that lays golden eggs?

>> "One of them explained it to me with much remorse, "Ek aisi hawa chali thi ke na jaane kya kya kar diye". " - R Saroja

Yes. That is true. I was young then, but could sense the heady rabidness for a temple. And, the government simply let it happen!! Only a moron would have bought the argument that a gathering of thousands of hot-headed rabids will be a peaceful passing. If the police had been allowed to thrash them back to the caves, things would have been so much better.

And yes, so fancy of you to think that all rioters were Hindus!!

Thanks Saroja for snuffing out that link. That closes one half of the discussion. It is easier to find this link if one searches for the phrase "permissible genocide" (along with "Irr.. Indian, Anwaar, Kashmir, Outlook).

Kashmir was a hot topic in those days, and there were many articles on it. Anwaar raised the spectre of "genocide" in his response to posters advocating army retaliation (me included). For other part of the discussion chain, we need to search just on "genocide" (along with Irr.. Indian, Anwaar, Kashmir, Outlook) . I tried it and it returned too many entries for me to sift thro'. But, I owe that to Anwaar, at least. Will do that.

And yes, I thought that the matter ended with 47/D-12 and 50/D-39 on 16th Sep 2010 (http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=693252)!! I stopped bothering about such childish squibbles, particularly if the topic was unrelated.
Another of my earlier "explanations" to Anwaar 78/D-204 on 15th Dec 2010: news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx
(http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=704887&commentid=12007)

>> "I don't know why the term genocide was used by THE IRREVERENT INDIAN......." - YHWH

As mentioned above, "genocide" was a recurring word on parallel articles/ forums. My use of that word was in that context. With the benefit of hindsight, I must admit that it was stupid of me to step on that shit. The least I should have done was to use the word in quotes.

PS: It is my stated position that no one - irrespective of cause or religion - should be allowed to dare law and order. Why should Kashmir be treated with kids' gloves if Operation Greenhunt and police attack at Ramlila ground are justified. Babri would not have happened if the police had opened fire at those bigots. SL could not have eliminated LTTE without bullets. Sadly, we Indians learn neither from history, nor from others' success.
 

<< There is only one language that the Kashmiri Muslims understand - Bullets. These are those moments when genocide is permissible in spirit of the greater good>>

I don't know why the term genocide was used by THE IRREVERENT INDIAN but I can safely deduce that he meant killing Kashmiri Muslims to bring in the order. It was like Gujarat government order for shoot at site during post Godhra riots when Gujarati Hindus wanted to see Gujarati Muslims out of the state or dead. Do you support the limited genocide by the state, Anwaar and Saroja?

Reflectionson Truth and Reconciliation

www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/article/102297/Introduction.aspx

 www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/article/102298/Showing-Faces-Hearing-Voices-Tugging-at-Emotions.aspx

www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/article/102299/Newspaper-Management-Keeps-Quiet-About-Its-Role-in-Apartheid.aspx

www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/article/102300/Questioning-If-Guilt-Without-Punishment-Will-Lead-to-Reconciliation.aspx

www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/article/102301/Struggling-for-Memory-Against-Forgetting.aspx

Comments ?

Saroja,

Thanks for your kind words and for digging up the following comment:

10/D-143
Sep 13, 2010
10:08 PM

There is only one language that the Kashmiri Muslims understand - Bullets. These are those moments when genocide is permissible in spirit of the greater good.

The Irreverent Indian, Online

PERMISSIBLE GENOCIDE

 news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx

This is where such ideologies lead. Look at who is talking about 'greater good'.  

Anwaar, I commend your spirit as a human being and your patience.

Irreverent Indian Online,

I have trouble following your language. See the chain of effort that I made.news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx  You have not responded to that. 

In this thread we  are discussing Breivik's trial in Norway. The issues involved are important to us in India in view of trials likely to come up later this year or early next year. Already there are mischievous attempts to pit hindus against muslims. www.tehelka.com/story_main52.asp Who benefits by this?

There are other approaches that I have not mentioned, but would like to take up like "Truth and Reconciliation" etc. 

Sometimes much harm comes not necessarily out of hatred but from thoughtlessness and apathy. When VP Singh was the prime minister, Jagmohan was BJP's nominee for Governorship of J&K. On 21st May 1990, a respected Kashmiri leader was assassinated by militants. The popular feeling was turning completely against militants. In the funeral procession BSF fired on the marchers and over 60 people were killed. Jagmohan denies that he ordered the firing. Afterwards he was removed. Why was he there anyway. People do not realize that many more Kashmiri muslims have been killed by militants. And there are groups playing up Kashmiri Pandits against rest of Kashmir. But because of many bold efforts taken up by Govt., and more importantly opening up of reporting on Kashmir, militancy may abate.(Also because Pakistan has other basic issues to worry abour). In any case, in reconciliation lies the future. www.manushi.in/articleList.php 

I have interacted very closely with some youth who had shouted "Jai Shri Ram" and riotted against muslims in Bombay in 1992/3. Where we worked as volunteers, riotters and victims were all slum dwellers. These riotters had been 'inspired' by something bigger than their everyday ordinary life, being given a name(HINDU) and a uniform(BIG TIKKA), the grace of following a LEADER (Bal Thackeray).   Later when we were involved in the rehabilitation work, they wanted to join us and with equal conviction would have shouted "HINDU MUSLIM BHAI BHAI". So are people (some people/most people some time/ some people some time ?) like empty vessels into which we can pour any emotion? One of them explained it to me with much remorse, "Ek aisi hawa chali thi ke na jaane kya kya kar diye". This remorse would not have been there if we were not seen as STRONG. Police at lower level appreciated us, and after A.S.Samra took over police at every level listened to and acted on our complaints. We had RPF protection later on etc. How do we tackle propaganda ?

In Germany, Hitler's Mein Kampf is not allowed to be published by the Bavarian Government which holds the copy right., But the copy right will expire in 2015.

The southern German state of Bavaria, which holds the copyright to Adolf Hitler's polemic "Mein Kampf," hasn't allowed the book to be published in Germany since the end of World War II. But the copyright expires in 2015, and there are concerns that neo-Nazis might immediately begin disseminating the work once Bavaria can no longer prevent its publication.

But now Bavaria has announced it will take its own steps to limit the damage the book might cause. Bavarian science minister Wolfgang Heubisch announced on Monday that the state would publish an annotated version of the book. By including commentaries on the text debunking Hitler's arguments, the state government hopes that readers will not be seduced by the Nazi leader's propaganda. The state is also planning a version for schools, with notes that are easy for young people to understand. www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,829513,00.html

>> "I do not know about the practice of polygamy and fertility rates of hindutva community. Indian census does not recognize them as a separate community......" - R Saroja

There is no such thing as "hindutva community". Jokers like you use the term to couter-balance your defence of Islamist fascism.

TFR (Total Fertility Rate) is reported by the Planning Commission by religion. As per the 2011 release, Muslim TFR stands right at the top (along with STs) at 3.1 (encouraging factor is that it dropped from 3.6 to 3.1). Your point about fertility having strong corelation with economic status (also add:literacy) is correct.

You have still not answered the original issue: what makes you conclude that those without family are more likely to resort to violence or riots? The worst massacres in history, particularly in India, were committed by those with bloated families.

Irreverent,

>>  I had posted the links to the discussion chain last year, and Anwaar did not respond.

That is a lie, but your last comment is a perfect example of how hateful and offensive you are.

Rishi Vyas,

Thanks for your effort. Comment no: 52 says, "If it means killing an entire generation of Kashmiri youths, so be it!", but there is another comment by Irreverent Indian in the discussion of a different article on the same topic which uses the phrase "permissible genocide". If I remember correctly, it was addressed to a poster who called himself Identity Lost.

My pice of crap on this "permissible genocide" shit. 

Thanks WhatsInaName for putting the things in perspective. Except that it was in context of Kashmiri scoundrels pelting stones on the security personnel while they hailed Pakistan. The government let the armed forces practice restraint and not counter-attack. Even the worst Mullah apologists can't deny the incident - it was all over on TVs.

I was of the opinion that a few rounds of firing will send those bigots back to their caves. I had posted the links to the discussion chain last year, and Anwaar did not respond. I do not want to engage him on this (ever heard about wrestling a pig in the mud??)

>> "Did he actually say "permissible genocide" ? What magic does Mr. Modi exude?"

This is how the sickular bigots spread propaganda. A veteran sickular keeps repeating the shit in hope that it will soon be recorded as approved history. Then, the fresh-mint sickular arrivals gobble it and go one better by roping in Modi/RSS/Hindutva, whoever they can, without knowing the context.

>> "Those were his actual words...... ..... Moreover he said it to someone else, not to me. "

Those were not "actual" words, but I do agreee that I was in favour of the security personnel firing back. WhatsInaName as captured the sequence of the conversation correctly.

And yes Mr. Pretend-Ghajini, that was a discussion between YOU and me.

http://blogs.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=2284&commentid=5017#5017

>> That is wrong. Moreover he said it to someone else, not to me

Okay. So what was the context, and who was the other poster?

Someone has a link to the original discussion?

Saroja,

>> what happened on 21st May 1990, in Kashmir.

The stone pelting we are discussing occurred just a year ago. What shocked me was that Irreverent Indian, while discussing this incident with another poster with similar views, advocated "permissible genocide" to deal with the situation. That is the long and the short of it.

 news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx

Assertion of the second blogger that extremist violence by the right actually increases its political influence. In the aftermath of anti-sikh pogrom in Delhi, I was shocked by assertion of many Delhiites that "it was needed in the interest of secularism". It would be wrong to say that the attack against the sikhs was fuelled by anti sikh feelings, which if there were , were not very strong. But the violence built up very strong anti sikh feelings. More than a year later, I have heard people justifying it. Something similar happened post Babri Masjid demolition. 

Post-demolition, there has been a sudden, rather than gradual, shift in the views of much of the urban Hindu middle-class. A curious pattern of thinking has emerged, suggesting that somehow Muslims ``deserved it''. They are held guilty, as a whole, of a massive collection of crimes, plots and treacherous acts. The factual background becomes irrelevant, and it is increasingly difficult to reason with one's acquaintances on very basic questions, even when many of the ``facts'' they produce can easily be falsified.

An account of the psychology behind this is here  theory.tifr.res.in/~mukhi/Misc/escape.html.

A proper trial would prevent that from happening. Norway model as in Breveik's trial or US model as in the case of trial of Khaleid Sheikh Mohammed? Does a trial provide a platform for the extremists or does it discredit them? Norway and US both would want the trials to discredit the ideology of the accused. It was in this context that I was mentioning Nuremberg trials. Without trials, or justice, extremism will only grow.

During events like the Breivik trial, when the activities of the far right are briefly placed under the spotlight, party leaders cling to ‘respectable’ opinion with their public statements. Wilders has condemned the attacker as ‘violent and sick’. Mme Le Pen called him a ‘crazy man’. When news of a play to be based around Breivik’s ‘manifesto’ came to light, Danish People’s Party leader Pia Kjaersgaard said it was in ‘poor taste’.

Vajpayee asks Modi to observe Rajdharma and a whole lot of acolytes swoon, dazzled by the brilliance of the master who then goes to Goa and justifies Modi, 'magar ye aag pahle kisne lagayi?'. When Graham Staines and his sons were burnt alive, he asked for a national debate on conversion. Now can anyone remember anti christian feelings say 20 years back ? Violence corrupts.  As a result of right wing extremism now in Europe

The public, at a time of economic strife, is told to take part in debates on ‘national identity’ or Islam’s place in Europe – the voices of Europe’s minorities are rarely, if ever, heard.

Naming and trying extremism would have brought out different results.

(to be contd)

 Kashmiri Hindus: Kya Vaapsi mumkin hai ?

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/hum-log/video-story/221781

 Anwaar,

Why do you not take it as an opportunity and prepare and post a note on what happened on 21st May 1990, in Kashmir, the background and consequences of what happened that day. Be objective and ignore personal abuses. All of us need to learn and understand. May be some good will come out of this exchange

>> "Anwaar criticize police for firing at stone pelting crowds in Kashmir, calling it a genocide. Irreverent said that it wasn't, and if it is, then this genocide is permitted."

That is wrong. Moreover he said it to someone else, not to me. He and the other guy were agreeing with each other.

Saroja,

>> Did he actually say "permissible genocide" ?

Those were his actual words. And all day long he goes on with "mullah apologists" and "these jokers"!

>> Did he actually say "permissible genocide" ?

The discussion, if I remember correctly, went something like this (one of them shall correct me if I am wrong).

Anwaar criticize police for firing at stone pelting crowds in Kashmir, calling it a genocide. Irreverent said that it wasn't, and if it is, then this genocide is permitted.

Guys, correct me if I am wrong.

>> I do not know about the practice of polygamy and fertility rates of hindutva community. Indian census does not recognize them as a separate community

It is good that you are looking for evidence here.

>> counts them together with hindus much to the displeasure of hindus

What is the evidence of this displeasure?

You give this quest a very quick burial. Looks like logic and intelligence desert you very frequently.

>> I expect fertility rate for hindutva to be low since their economic status would be high

Then what is the relevance of the crap you are posting here?

 36/D-45 news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx

The Atlantic article compares the trial of Anders Breivik in Norway with that of  Khaleid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) in US. There is this fear that Breivik's trial would offer a platform for far rightwing views as this trial is reported all over world. 

 Breivik appears to be deliberately using the trial and its media coverage, which he is clearly enjoying, as a platform to glorify his awful crime and the beliefs behind it..... In his manifesto before his attacks, Breivik wrote a sort of primer for the other militants he was hoping to inspire. "Your trial offers you a stage to the world," he noted.

However, the author notes that Breivik's rantings are having opposite effect. Popular backlash against rightwingers has put them on defensive and when they had called for a rally in Denmark recently, the antifascists called for a counter rally and outnumbered them.

Comparing them with KSM's trial in US where he is denied civilian trial, the author concludes

Still, neither KSM nor Anders Breivik will be the last terrorist to bring violence on a democratic society. How that society responds, whether with the Norwegian model or the Guantanamo model, seems to make a difference.

I really liked one readers response:

You are comparing apples and oranges. I do not believe Breivik represents anything. Similar to how the Unabomber does not say anything about the extreme environmental movement, Breivik says nothing about far right ethnic nationalists. For both the "reason" for their cause isn't that important. They both picked a fringe movement because they need to feel special, as if they possess secret knowledge that the rest of society isn't smart enough to get. Because both saw themselves as great original thinkers that needed to show the rest of us the errors of our ways, they wrote manifestos. However that both were so disjointed shows that you are not dealing with people with a full deck. Both are megalomaniacs, and shallow ones at that, the only thing they "represent" is how megalomaniacs operate.

This is why neither Breivik or the Unabomber didn't belong to any groups. They were both lone wolves wrapped up in their own self-image. Breivik in particular invented his own "secret organization" with uniforms because no one else, including other far right ethnic nationalists, would give him the time of day. As such having him babble in court, far from causing damage, may do some good because he is such a self-deluding character. His incoherent ramblings, far from encouraging other far right extremists, will probably embarrass them.

This is VERY different to KSM. KSM was a member of a large organization which does have a coherent philosophy that a large number of people either believe or are sympathetic to. As such presenting him with a forum could cause a great deal of damage.

This doesn't mean that we may not want to try KSM in court for some other reasons, but comparing to Breivik isn't a good argument because they are so dis-similar.

The author of the second blog is more pessimistic. He notes the rise of rightwing in Europe and how it is sought to be explained by 'armchair columnists'

 columnists from across the political spectrum indulge in armchair psychology, audaciously trying to categorise the motives to drive a man to commit such murderous acts".He was consumed by an ideological hatred of Muslims and socialists"." He was a monster made by multiculturalism and cultural Marxism".

He notes with concern the rise and increasing moving to the center stage of rightwing in Europe.

Their ‘legitimisation’ takes place within an apologetic Europe, which is increasingly unsure of itself. In the past two years, we have seen conservative Government figures all over the continent proclaiming that multiculturalism has failed. Leading social democrats, kicked out of power election after election throughout the continent during the 2000s, are starting to question the benefits of historic migration into their countries. They are calling for closed borders and stating regret at their ‘naivety’ in accepting ‘uncontrolled’ immigration for so long.

But he makes an interesting observation

while seeing Europe’s far right in the context of violent extremism has undoubtedly warned people about certain risks, it has done little to diminish the far right’s political influence. In fact, as I have argued previously, it may even have bolstered it.

Repeat " it may even have bolstered it."

On the other hand 

The public, at a time of economic strife, is told to take part in debates on ‘national identity’ or Islam’s place in Europe – the voices of Europe’s minorities are rarely, if ever, heard.

>> Your rants are not supported by the empiricals. The community most (in)famous for violent, regressive and kill-happy people also happens to top the practice of polygamy and highest fertility rates

I do not know about the practice of polygamy and fertility rates of hindutva community. Indian census does not recognize them as a separate community and counts them together with hindus much to the displeasure of hindus. As Indian census figures show there  is very strong inverse correlation between fertility rates and economic status, I expect fertility rate for hindutva to be low since their economic status would be high, parasites that they are. The fertility rates for hindus and muslims are similar if they are compared economic status wise. The overall fertility for muslims is higher because overall they are economically backward. As far as polygamy is concerned it is marginally higher among hindus but that cannot be because of contribution from hindutvawadis, because they are a very small group, noticeable only because of their destructive ways. 

I appeal to all hindus and non-hindus  to beware of ethically challenged trying to pass off as hindus. 

>> "I was comparing Breivik with the rioters with whom I interacted post Bombay riots. One common feature- no family. See my posting 20/D-23. A family or smaller social unit "traps'" the neurotism and keeps it within while in modern day" - R Saroja

Your rants are not supported by the empiricals. The community most (in)famous for violent, regressive and kill-happy people also happens to top the practice of polygamy and highest fertility rates. Last heard, they were still counting the number of wives and kids Osama ji left behind him.

At Ease

Most wounds can Time repair;
But some are mortal -- these:
For a broken heart there is no balm,
No cure for a heart at ease --

At ease, but cold as stone,
Though the intellect spin on,
And the feat and practiced face may show
Nought of the life that is gone;

But smiles, as by habit taught;
And sighs, as by custom led;
And the soul within is safe from damnation,
Since it is dead.

Walter de la Mare

Anwaar,

Did he actually say "permissible genocide" ?  What magic does Mr. Modi exude? Do you have any idea of what sort of people are these? They can't be students since American Univs have a good liberal tradition. They have had their mind, soul and intellect poisoned by 3rd rate propaganda.

.............the soul within is safe from damnation

                  for it is dead.

Irreverent Indian,

>> "the left-lopped jokers and Jehad apologists continue..."

What a moronic and rude way to participate in this forum! But nothing better can be expected from  you, the only person I know who has acually supported the idea of "permissible genocide"!

Contd,

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them. Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, "I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so." Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:

"While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigors which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement."

The inflated style itself is a kind of euphemism. A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity.

>>Irreverent Indian

"As long as the left-lopped jokers and Jehad apologists continue to target others in guise of (pseudo)secularism and liberalism, such mass-murdering loners will continue to haunt us now and then. And then, those jokers will continue to peddle their logic on how these right-wing extremism has resulted in Islamist and left-wing activities"

left lop pregnancy.about.com/od/laborbasics/ss/fetalpositions_4.htm Ooops

lop 1 (lp)
tr.v. lopped, lop·ping, lops
1. To cut off (a part), especially from a tree or shrub: lopped off the dead branches.
2. To cut off a part or parts from; trim: lopped the vines back; lopped her curls shorter.
3. To eliminate or excise as superfluous: lopped him from the payroll.

OKay OKay instead of using @&%^$#@&*(  you used some english letters.

"A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts."

Here is the link to Orwell's full essay. www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

>> "Sadly, it seems that while seeing Europe’s far right in the context of violent extremism has undoubtedly warned people about certain risks, it has done little to diminish the far right’s political influence...... .....The trial of one mass-murdering loner in Oslo will do nothing to change that." - R Saroja

As long as the left-lopped jokers and Jehad apologists continue to target others in guise of (pseudo)secularism and liberalism, such mass-murdering loners will continue to haunt us now and then. And then, those jokers will continue to peddle their logic on how these right-wing extremism has resulted in Islamist and left-wing activities. And, the cycle will continue. Unfortunately, Europe and India faces the worst threat. In case of India, maoists are turning into a bigger threat than Islamist terrorism. Of course, the leftist and sickular idiots will continue to demand that the right-wingers (whatever it means) must carry the burden of their crimes.

yhwh

I had typed out everything and pressed a wrong button and everything is gone. I wll reply late in the night or tomorrow. I was comparing Breivik with the rioters with whom I interacted post Bombay riots. One common feature- no family. See my posting 20/D-23. A family or smaller social unit "traps'" the neurotism  and keeps it within while in modern day, internet and all and you can become the sort of megalomaniac that was not possible earlier. I will come to it again later. In sociology they have a name for it, anomie.

R. Saroja,

If the idea of Norway authorities was to prove Anders Breivik insane, they have failed miserably. For the legitimization of anti immigration politics, France has shown the way. Le Pen was voted by 1 in 5 voters and French administation wants an end to unrestricted travel around EU. This is a harbinger of things to come. Anders Breivik has now become the killer extraordinaire.

 Interesting links

 www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/what-america-can-learn-from-norways-anders-breivik-trial/256066/

mondediplo.com/openpage/reflections-on-the-breivik-trial

The author of the blog above has a pessimistic prognosis.

Breivik’s trial is due to end in July when the media spotlight will move onto another story. But has it damaged the dangerous ideology that he claims motivated his actions?Sadly, it seems that while seeing Europe’s far right in the context of violent extremism has undoubtedly warned people about certain risks, it has done little to diminish the far right’s political influence. In fact,..... it may even have bolstered it.....Cordon sanitaires have been dismantled, freeing parties to play an active role in governing coalitions – legitimised by their mainstream counterparts.

The trial of one mass-murdering loner in Oslo will do nothing to change that.

Comments ?
 

 Anwaar and Yhwh,

Watching you was like watching Herr Settembirini and Herr Naphta from Thomas Mann's "The Magic Mountain"....  Ok Ok take it with a pinch of salt..

YHWH,

Here is a link to Erich Neumann's "Depth Psychology and a New Ethic" books.google.co.in/books . A summary of the book :

The modern world has witnessed a dramatic breakthrough of the dark, negative forces of human nature. The "old ethic," which pursued an illusory perfection by repressing the dark side, has lost its power to deal with contemporary problems. Erich Neumann was convinced that the deadliest peril now confronting humanity lay in the "scapegoat" psychology associated with the old ethic. We are in the grip of this psychology when we project our own dark shadow onto an individual or group identified as our "enemy," failing to see it in ourselves. The only effective alternative to this dangerous shadow projection is shadow recognition, acknowledgement, and integration into the totality of the self. Wholeness, not perfection, is the goal of the new ethic.

Here is a very readable account by someone whom I respect, of the psychological mechanism of shadow projection at its worst and how it is operating here in India while reviewing a book of  another psychologist Erich Fromm. Here is the link

theory.tifr.res.in/~mukhi/Misc/escape.html

Neumann's contention is that there are different stages of ethical development. Shadow projection is one of the stages in the development of ethics in humans. Eg, we have trial courts. Consider 3 cases.

Case I:  A driver is caught driving moderately drunk.

Case II: A driver is arrested after he is involved in an accident. Breath analysis tests indicate that he was moderately drunk.

Case III:A driver is arrested after he is involved in an accident. Breath analysis tests indicate that he was not drunk.

Trial is held in all these cases. Punishment in case II is severer than in case I or III.

When a person is put on a trial, he is made the scapegoat. ie representative of all the people who committed such a crime or might commit it in future. An posting on another thread about the meaning of trial is here www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx Handing of punishment seals a process of "naming" the crime.

Neumann indicates the inadequacy of this mechanism  The crime is always seen as being outside oneself. The solution he advocates is shadow integration. My copy of Neumann's book is lying in another city. So let me illustrate what he means by giving an example from my own life. Every year I make new year resolutions(NYR) and generally follow them deligently. Earlier my NYR used to follow a pattern. One year I used to make a resolution "I will be good" . Say somebody slapped me over something. I would excuse that person, try to improve myself so that I would be blameless etc. By the end of the year I would be so emotionally drained, that my next NYR would be "I will be bad", meaning 'giving it back as bad as I get'. Now I can be really nasty with my tongue. By the end of the year I would be unhappy with the state of affairs and the next year the NYR would be "I will be good" and so forth. Then I made a shocking discovery (ie shocking to me), that when I was " being bad", I was rarely bad. Many sharp retorts would be aborted in the head itself ( I would feel sorry for the other party,'What match is this idiot to my sarcastic wit' that only a heavily edited response would come out). But if I ever said anything in anger, afterwards I never felt bad about it, I used to feel completely justified, may be because I was rarely rude.Sometimes it would be many years before I realize that may be I was wrong....... It was when I was goody-goody that in all innocence I would say some innocuous thing which had another meaning which would find its mark.If pointed out that I was nasty, I would protest that the other person was being paranoid, how could I, the googy-goody, be ...  It is not a very happy discovery to make about oneself and it came to me when I had inner resources to take it. In another culture, I would have been the oracle.

In Nemann's language, when I was being goody-goody, I was practising shadow repression, and it would erupt in unexpected ways. The solution is shadow integration. In my  case, now if I am mad at anyone, I tell myself that I am mad, hurt etc,. think of all awful retorts, but I never say it, because I know from experience, that after a few days I will feel different. That has made me a much kinder person, not only towards other(expected), but also towards myself (earlier I never realized that I was cruel to myself!). 

Since you have read "The protocol", you must read Umberto's book. I know it is somewhat of a difficult book but very rewarding. The world can do with less venom.

YHWH,

>> US, Israel or drug cartels don's say they are persecuted because they of this religion.

You were talking about "vitiating world politics". Now you jump to something totally different. If you just want to say something bad about Muslims, go ahead and say it directly instead of beating around the bush. Get it off your chest. That will make you feel better!

Saroja

I am afraid I don't know much about the scapegoat psychology. But I have to admit that the best book I have read till date , the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is perhaps one of the best. Ok, it is a hoax and forgery but one has to read it to know what really the world is. Here is an illustration from the first page

Right lies in Might. Freedom -- an idea only. Liberalism.
Gold. Faith. Self-Government. Despotism of Capital. The
internal foe. The Mob. Anarchy. Politics versus Morals. The
Right of the strong. The Invincibility of Jew-Masonic
authority. End justifies Means. The Mob a Blind Man.
Political A.B.C. Party Discord. Most satisfactory form of
rule-Despotism. Alcohol. Classicism. Corruption. Principles
and rules of the Jew-Masonic Government. Terror. ''Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.'' Principle of Dynastic Rule.

 YHWH>>..if one reads the history of Weimar Republic, it is a fact that Jews were held responsible for the German loss in WW1 along with communists. When it became known the Jews had lobbied for Israel in the Paris Peace conference, it gave Germans another reason for hating Jews. This also gave Hitler a plank to play his politics by targetting Jews...

I want to have a longish discussion with you about what you say. Seriously.

First I will state my prejudices and background and shortcomings. I am glad we agree that Hitler was evil. I have grown up reading what Orwell calls concentration camp literature. It will be easy for me to say what I want to if you are a bookish person. Otherwise also I will  try. Some time back I had made a list of novels that I have read dealing with terrorist/revolutionary/anarchist groups. It is here. www.goodreads.com/list/show/18695.Best_Misguided_Revolutionaries_Books  The last of these books  The Prague Cemetery I started reading a couple of weeks back. At its heart is a fictional account of the clever forgery 'The Protocol of the elders of Zion' that was used to justify the Holocaust. Here is an interview with Umberto Eco, the authorwww.goodreads.com/interviews/show/622.Umberto_Eco .  My motto in life is a quote from Marie Curie "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less." I was in school during emergency, reading 1984 and comparing the book with real life outside. When I started reading newspaper, there was this Baader-Meihof gang and Italian Red Brigades, upheaval in Iran, Pakistan, and ofcourse Afghanistan. Comparitively we are more peaceful now right? And yes the Bologna railway station bombing, where may be the state intelligent agencies were involved. www.threemonkeysonline.com/a-massacre-to-remember-the-bologna-train-station-bombing-twenty-five-years-later/ .

Are you aware of scapegoat psychology?Else  I will prepare a short note and post it. 

anwaar

US, Israel or drug cartels don's say they are persecuted because they of this religion. If you find huntington not good enough, that's if fine. If i am wearing blinders and you still have a religious prism to look at the world.

YHWH,

>>  I don't see christians, jews and hindus blowing up for religion.

That is bad, but it does not "vitiate world politics". It is small stuff compared to what the U.S., and Israel are doing, or what the drug cartels are doing in Mexico and Columbia.

>>  Except for Netanyahu/Palestine, I don't see any good reason for blaming the rest for vitiating present day politics.

Because you are wearing blinders.

>>  most of intellectuals with realism have only respect for Huntington.

That is rubbish.

You are just repeating yourslf. This will be my last post in this thread.

<<Muslims are responsible for vitiating the world politica>>

In last 10 years except some isolated incidents, I don't see christians, jews and hindus blowing up for religion. It is only muslims who have the monopoly. Any attacks by non Muslim right wingers have come as a reaction of Islamic terrorism.

<<neo-colonialists, neo-cons, Zionists, Hitler, Stalin, George Bush and Netanyahu>>

That is a bid loaded assertion. Except for Netanyahu/Palestine, I don't see any good reason for blaming the rest for vitiating present day politics. Also it is the thugs from hamas, hezbollah who want to see the destruction of Israel and not Israel who wants to kill the Palestine state. Again it is Muslim organizations that are to be blamed for not talking peace.

<<He is ridiculed and his theories are mocked>>

Spare this ad hominem drivel. Except for some idiots like Edward Said and naom chomsky, most of intellectuals with realism have only respect for Huntington.

YHWH,

>>  the back door to justify the Muslim terrorism under the garb of Palestine and the so called USA backed dictators.

Do you understand English? When did I justify terrorism? I was answering your silly assertion that Muslims are responsible for vitiating the world politics.

>> Muslim terrorist organizations are doing is justifiable because of Palestine and American backed puppet dictators.

I have never tried to justify terrorism. What I said was that you cannot forget neo-colonialists, neo-cons, Zionists, Hitler, Stalin, George Bush and Netanyahu when talking about who is responsible for what you call "vitiating world politics". 

>>  But can you name one political scientist who doesn't have detractors?

Huntington does not just have detractors. He is ridiculed and his theories are mocked. But, as I said, if his theories are meaningful to you, that is okay.

<<An idiotic statement!>>

So now you are using the back door to justify the Muslim terrorism under the garb of Palestine and the so called USA backed dictators. I understand you have no sympathy for Al Qaeda but then you know what Muslim terrorist organizations are doing is justifiable because of Palestine and American backed puppet dictators. That's always a good starting point though. If I were to be a Muslim and remain a Muslim, I would have a tacit support for Mujahedin after looking at what is happening in Chechnya, Xinjiang, Bosnia, Nigeria, Philippines, Thailand  or even Kashmir.

<<I am not the only one discrediting him>>

Yes, the great Edward Said discredited him. Naom Chomsky did the same. But can you name one political scientist who doesn't have detractors? Who Are We? The Challenges to America's National Identity is a seminal work in political science. If Plato can lose to Sophists, I don't think Huntington was invincible. But this doesn't mean that he is one greatest the political scientist world has ever seen.

YHWH,

>>  you will never say that Muslims are responsible for vitiating the world politics.

An idiotic statement! Tell that to Palestinian refugees or to Muslim populations oppressed by American-supported dictators. I suppose you would give a clean chit to neo-imperialists, neo-cons and zionism. I have no sympathy for Al Qaeda or other jihadis, but I have no sympathy for warped thinking like yours either.

>> you have to discredit someone like Sam Huntington.

I am not the only one discrediting him. In his later articles  instead of predicting a catastrophic conflict between "Western civilization" and Islam, Huntington foresees a new threat to the United States: Latino immigrants. In "The Hispanic Challenge," Huntington claims that "the single most serious challenge to America's traditional identity comes from the immense and continuing immigration from Latin America, especially from Mexico."" He made a laughing stock of himself. He was twice nominated to the National Academy of Sciences and twice rejected. But if he suits your biases, so be it.

Correction: I am a cock or bull and not a cow

Saroja

<<Your statement ends up blaming the victim unfortunately>>

This was not my intention. However, if one reads the history of Weimar Republic, it is a fact that Jews were held responsible for the German loss in WW1 along with communists. When it became known the Jews had lobbied for Israel in the Paris Peace conference, it gave Germans another reason for hating Jews. This also gave Hitler a plank to play his politics by targetting Jews. The same is happening in Anders Breivik case where he is simply repeating the Muslim attacks to make his point clear.

Anwaar

I can understand that you will never say that Muslims are responsible for vitiating the world politics and starting a religious war. If you have to discredit someone like Sam Huntington, you won't shy away from that. And yes, I take my responsibilty for any attack by Hindus on other religion though I am as much Hindu as a cow can be.

Saroja,

>> muslims may end up being the scapegoats.

Large scale immigration within a short period of time of  difficult to integrate Muslims will  produce difficulties for a generation or two. Europeans are not too tolerant of other races, and they persecuted Jews for over 1000 years, culminating in the Holocaust. We also have "dotbusters" and skin-heads targeting Hindus and Sikhs.

>> A psychotic may be an ideal faultline wherein we may examine what is wrong with the society.

Ramblings of  isolated and unsocialized psychotics such as Breivik have to be distinguished from  the organized activities of neo-Nazis such as Gert Weiders. The latter need to be watched.

>> I think the then govt. failed to tax the rich, but I will have to look it up.

This has nothing to do with the canard that Jewish desire for a homeland is what had angered the Germans. It is pure fiction.

>> what about the progressive voices from within the muslim community? They were not heard by the govt which shamefully capitulated to fundamentalists.

This is true. Even today moderate Muslims in India are either uninvolved or scared, but this is slowly changing, thanks partly to the internet.

 >>Ok, he was a nut job, but again why only Muslims?

Because it is easy ? Your remarks on holocaust , you seem to think it is the idea of racial superiority that is the cause. Partly. If Jews were to have been killed by firing squads, the death toll might not have been so high. But they had this antiseptic gas chambers. Now I feel scared. Modern technology on one hand opens up so many possibilities, and on the other hand very antsptically one can go on hating all with a clear conscience. I lived in Delhi upto 1984. I was not aware of any anti Sikh feelings. After operation blue star  there was a protest demonstration by sikhs. It was a very small crowd. May be 20 or 30  only. Next day I remember reading in the paper that 6 people were briefly arrested. Yet, after the progrom, even after one year I have heard many Delhiites say that teaching sikhs a lesson was necessary for secularism. See, violence corrupts not only thr perpetrator but also the bystander and the wilfully ignorant.

In Bombay I have seen sections of muslims behave extremely stupid after the Shah Bano judgement. They cried Islam is in danger. But what about the progressive voices from within the muslim community? They were not heard by the govt which shamefully capitulated to fundamentalists. Indian express had Arun Shourie, Times of India had Girilal Jain, Vinod Mehta's The Independent had the likes of KR Malkani. Such a vicious hate campaign was let loose on Muslims. Some of the hate campaign was so "objective" and antiseptic. We were showered with hateful VHP pamphlets and slogans like,

Hum do, hamare do  woh paanch, unke pachis.

Mussalmanon ka ek hi sthan, Pakistan ya kabrstan etc.

We tried our best. We brought out and distributed pamphlets at public places asking for amity, On more than one occasion we had to be rescued by being arrested by the police after we were surrounded by hostile mob. The slogan was garv se kaho hum hindu hain. Rao, who was home minister in Delhi was prime minister when Babri Masjid was pulled down. Bombay burnt. I have seen people with sword injuries. Swords! Refugee camp hastily put up atop dump yard. In 2 cases we investigated police had gone berserk and fired at place A when there was disturbance at B. Where I woked as a volunteer there were 4 deaths in riots and 2 deaths in police firing. Why muslims were targetted? Because they were seen as muslims and not as human beings. We failed. Tell me what muslims should do. If muslims in Bombay have not taken to any desparate methods,it is because of people like AS Samra and Satish Sawhney. Teesta Setalvad and Javed Anand started Communalism Combat and their work continues. Look at the piece on her in the current Outlook.   

 YHWH,ANWAAR

>>There are people who just refuse to remain sitting ducks and some won't let a particular religion to monopolize the whole terror industry

I think that there are enough people on either side who will think that "a particular religion" refers to the other religion. In the international setting though I agree with YHWH that muslims may end up being the scapegoats. 

>>An psychotic quote from a psychotic

All the more reason to be taken seriously. A psychotic may be an ideal faultline wherein we may examine what is wrong with the society. May I quote outline of a short novel from the novel The Golden Notebook by Doris Lessing. 

A SHORT NOVEL Two people together, in any kind ofrelationship-mother, son; father, daughter; lovers; it doesn't matter.
One of them acutely neurotic. The neurotic hands on his or her state to
the other, who takes it over, leaving the sick one well, the well one sick. I
remember Mother Sugar telling me a story about a patient. A young man had come to see her convinced he was in desperate psychological trouble. She could find nothing wrong with him. She asked him to send along his father to her. One by one all the family, five of them, arrived in her consulting room. She found them all normal. Then the mother came. She, apparently 'normal,' was in fact extremely neurotic, but maintaining her balance by passing it on to her family, particularly to the youngest son. Eventually Mother Sugar treated the mother, though there was terrible trouble getting her to come for treatment. And the young man who had come in the first place found the pressure lifting off him. I remember her saying: Yes, often it's the most 'normal' member of a family or a group who is really sick, but simply because they have strong personalities, they survive, because other, weaker personalities, express their illness for them.

>> Won't you blame Al Qaeda for 22/7 Norway?

>>Why are you shying away from Muslim responsibility for starting a war with religious connotations

Unfortunately ideas do kill more people. In that sense yes. But do you remember one Ahmad Shah Masoud, who was killed about 10 days before 9/11? He could have been a rallying point for the progressive forces. 

>>Jews, including the one living in Germany, had lobbied for Israel homeland during 1919 Paris Peace conference which fueled the German anger against Jews.

After first world war, Germany had to make huge reparations to France and England. To recover from war, it also had to increase social spending resulting in super inflation which wiped out the savings of the middle class. I think the then govt. failed to tax the rich, but I will have to look it up.Your statement ends up blaming the victim unfortunately. 

YHWH,

>> He quotes some of the finest authors like Prof. Huntington.

So you do admire Breivik! By the way Huntington was thoroughly discredited and ridiculed before he died.

>> Why are you shying away from Muslim responsibility for starting a war with religious connotations.

What Al Qaeda does is Al Qaeda's responsibility. Only hate-filled half-wits will try to put the blame on Muslims. Are all Roman Catholics to be blamed for what Hitler did? Are all Hindus to be blamed for what Abhinav Bharatis did?

>> That is one such example.

The article you posted about a crackpot named Kevin Forts says, "Most are distancing themselves from Breivik, but not Kevin Forts.....Forts' devotion shocks even Breivik himself." There are always fringe Nazi groups in Europe and America, so this is nothing new. Don't take too much encouragement from such loonies!

<<you see a lot of sense in his rubbish>>

He quotes some of the finest authors like Prof. Huntington - Islam has bloody borders.

<<Now you sound like Breivik's twin>>

Is Al Qaueda a charity organization. Why did the war on terror start? Why are you shying away from Muslim responsibility for starting a war with religious connotations

<<There is no evidence of that>>

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,828384,00.html

That is one such example.

YHWH,

>> Do you read a word praising Breivik?

The thread shows that you see a lot of sense in his rubbish.

>> the Islamic responsibity to vitiate the political enviornment of the world.

Now you sound like Breivik's twin!

>> I see a substantial increase in his followers.

There is no evidence of that.

Sounds like a wish!

Do you read a word praising Breivik? Or may be you are not ready to accept the Islamic responsibity to vitiate the political enviornment of the world.

Nobody takes his rants seriously, except perhaps you.

I see a substantial increase in his followers. I actually feel threatened by this guy.

YHWH,

>>  The way Hitler used Jews, someone from Europe will use Muslims.

Sounds like a wish!

>> Breivik is a little more dangerous.

He was very dangerous to his own people. He killed 77 of them. But he will not be dangerous for the next 21 years while he is in prison. Nobody takes his rants seriously, except perhaps you.

 ANWAAR, DALLAS

<<Do you know anything about the Holocaust?>>

I know one thing. The way Hitler used Jews, someone from Europe will use Muslims. 

<<Only some extremist Nazi nuts and some extremist Sanghi nuts would do that>>

Breivik is a little more dangerous. And these are coming, hard and fast, fast and hard. 

I wonder why Breivik was not called Christian terrorist. He is being called only a mass killer in many newspapers. Does it mean that only white European Chrsitians have the absolute right for mass killing as much as they wish? As history bears witness that west backed  racists had committed most of the mass killings/genocides/massacres including the two world wars.I don't know how we can coonect Al Qaeda(made in USA) with all those genocides committed by racists with tacit support from western colonial powers. If any Palestini/ Iraqi/Afghani, whose home land is invaded by racist colonial forces, commits this kind of mass killing, I will never call him Muslim terrorist despite my opposition to any killing.

I think the racists and extremist Christians are scared of the religion Islam which makes inroads into Euroupe at faster rate. Not only migration from Muslim countries but also the conversion of Europeans into Islam has become a great threat to the white supremacy everywhere. Now European racists are afraid of rising of an Islamic power in Europe like Al Anthalusia, which lasted 800 years and ended in 14th century.    

YHWH,

>> there were jews on Hitler's side.

Are you trying to say Hitler was not anti-Jew? Have you read Mein Kampf? Do you know anything about the Holocaust?

>> The rest of your arguments are of a self denials and deliberate digressions.

That is a vicious lie! Your attempt to find resonance in the psychotic rants of Breivik is deplorable. Only some extremist Nazi nuts and some extremist Sanghi nuts would do that.

 <<And they were not Jews>>

And there were jews on Hitler's side. 

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

The rest of your arguments are of a self denials and deliberate digressions. EOM. 

YHWH,

>>  Why did he host Bose and Mufti. Both were enemies of his enemy.

And they were not Jews.

>>>> Only yesterday he said that the last time Europe had democracy was under Hitler.
>> It came out of a tweet from a journalist

How consistent do you expect a psychotic to be?.
 

>>  Breivik's salute is different from Nazi salute.

Making such distinctions regarding the salutes of a nut is silly. All media in the US call it a Nazi salute.

>>>> Many new immigrants follow a rigid 16th century version of Islam
>> Hardly makes any sense.

It makes sense to anyone who is trying to understand the adaptation difficulties of some Muslims in Europe. It does not make sense to someone who has already made up his mind that Muslims  are bad, bad, bad.

>> a psychotic or philosophical.

Only a hate-filled communalist may consider Breivik "philosophical".

>> Jews, including the one living in Germany, had lobbied for Irael homeland during 1919 Paris Peace conference which fueled the German anger against Jews.

This is rubbish. German anti-semitism had nothing to do with the Jewish desire for a homeland.

>> Hitler used anger against Jews to make his mark in German politics.

That is partly true, but what is your point here?

>> don't you think that what Al Qaeda, LeT, Muslim terrorists have done in last 10 to 20 years has given this nut job a plank for his politics.

Killing 77 of his own people gives him 21 years in prison, not a plank for his "politics".

  but how can you compare that with systematic incineration of 6 million Jews?

Why did Hilter was so anti jews and wanted them out of the country. The RACE reason was primary, the Nazi belief in master race and the right of Aryans to rule over the world. 

But the important point is that Hitler used anger against Jews to make his mark in German politics. In 1919, Hitler was no more than a failed artist and  an orderly in army. Did Jews do anything to make Hitler his enemy? The answer is yes, they did. To the ever prevalent antisemitism in Europe, Germans started hating Jews for what was called as stab in the back legend. It was true that Jews, including the one living in Germany, had lobbied for Irael homeland during 1919 Paris Peace conference which fueled the German anger against Jews and gave Hitler a plank for his politics. 

Now don't you think that what Al Qaeda, LeT, Muslim terrorists have done in last 10 to 20 years has given this nut job a plank for his politics. Won't you blame Al Qaeda for 22/7 Norway? 

 ANWAAR, DALLAS

 Why did he host Bose and Mufti.

Both were enemies of his enemy. It was like Hitler going for Non Agression treaty with Soviets and attacking them later. Hitler was a dictator of perhaps the most powerful country till 1942.

<<Only yesterday he said that the last time Europe had democracy was under Hitler >>

It came out of a tweet from a journalist. In what context did he say, I am not sure.  Another tweet from the same journalist was : Breivik said he is anti Nazi. However, he did relate his victims to Hilter's youth and a legitimate target. 

http://www.smh.com.au/world/victims-just-like-hitler-youth-says-mass-killer-20120417-1x5mm.html

<<He gives the Nazi salute every morning he enters the court>>

I am not sure what exactly you know about Nazi past. Breivik's salute is different from Nazi salute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLic1mLaEII

<<Many new immigrants follow a rigid 16th century version of Islam>> 5th comment.

Hardly makes any sense. What is so special about Muslims. If a French lady complains that she is taunted in Muslim ghettos of Paris for showing skin, her anger is justified. 

<<The worrying thing is that you consider it to be quotable!>>

Well, a psychotic or philosophical. I am no judge and nor are you. 

YHWH,

>>  Hitler's war was based on Race where Arabs, Indians, Slavs were all human races. In fact, the hierarchy of races had Arabs placed lower than Jews. Now Hitler didn't kill only Jews, he killed Serbs, Bosnians, Poles, the Slavs.

Subhash Chandra Bose and the Grand Mufti of Palestine were well recieved by Hitler. Slavs, Serbs and other East Europeans were killed by the Nazis, but how can you compare that with systematic incineration of 6 million Jews?

>> Breivik never praised Hitler and even called him a fool.

Only yesterday he said that the last time Europe had democracy was under Hitler. He gives the Nazi salute every morning he enters the court.

>> If Muslim immigrants are in Europe, then there are Hindu, Bhuddhists and others as well.

See comment # 5.

>> Just like Jihadi warriors are the plum tree of the Ummah, we will be the plum tree for Europe and for Christianity.

An psychotic quote from a psychotic. The worrying thing is that you consider it to be quotable!

 Anwaar

You are missing the point. Hitler's war was based on Race where Arabs, Indians, Slavs were all human races. In fact, the hierarchy of races had Arabs placed lower than Jews. Now Hitler didn't kill only Jews, he killed Serbs, Bosnians, Poles, the Slavs. 

Breivik never praised Hitler and even called him a fool. If Breivik had any Nazi leanings, he would have attacked Jews before anyone else. 

If Muslim immigrants are in Europe, then there are Hindu, Bhuddhists and others as well. But Breivik targets Muslims only. Do you think Hindus/ Bhuddhists become Norwegians over the rime and Muslims don't. 

This is another quote from his manifesto :

Just like Jihadi warriors are the plum tree of the Ummah, we will be the plum tree for Europe and for Christianity. 

Now you see how Al Qaeda inspired Breivik

YHWH,

>> Why did Anders Breivik want to attack only Muslims and not the other religions?

Why did Hitler want to kill  followers of only one religion? Muslims in Europe are now occupying the space that Jews once did. Jews were persecuted in Europe for 1000 years. Because of their low birth rate and need for labourers, Europe has permitted large scale Muslim immigration. Many new immigrants follow a rigid 16th century version of Islam. Their integration is difficult and will be slow. But most Europeans do not start shooting and killing their own children at random. Breivik is a lone wolf. His praise of Hitler, his giving the Nazi salute everytime he enters court, and his showing no regret for what he did, gives away his abominable state of mind. For you to think that his words and actions lend support to your own communal hatred is a dangerous turn of events. India needs Muslims to adjust and adapt to the modern world, not Hindus to regress to a vengeful and bloody Hindutva.

 ANWAAR, DALLAS

Why did Anders Breivik want to attack only Muslims and not the other religions? This means he is a proud Christian, white suprematist, racist,. But wait, he actually wants future corporation with Hindus, Bhuddhists, Jews. A chistian will fight other religions, white suprematist will ask all the other immigrants to go back, a racist would like to see Jews back in concentration camp. But why Muslim, why writing a 1500 page fucking manifesto about Muslims, what is wrong with them, about their whole 1400 year history, how they are increasing their number, how to bring an end to Muslims. Ok, he was a nut job, but again why only Muslims?

YHWH,

>> "....some won't let a particular religion to monopolize the whole terror industry."

For some, any excuse to justify terrorism is good enough! Al Qaeda had its justification, the L-e-T has its justification, Tamil Tigers had their justification, Timothy McVeigh had his justification,  Anders Behring Breivik has his justification and Abhinav Bharati has its justification. The fact that some Indian Muslims admired  a mass murderer like Osama or that some Hindus empathize with a psychotic killer like Breivik is a worrisome indicator of how vulnerable some of us are to latch on to illusory solutions which just channel our hate. Interestingly there is hardly any sympathy for Breivik in Norway except perhaps from a handful of Nazi nuts.  

<< It's Al Qaeda's fault even when it had nothing to do with Al Qaeda>>

Have you heard about reactionary terrorism. Something that is happening in India as well. There are people who just refuse to remain sitting ducks and some won't let a particular religion to monopolize the whole terror industry. 

This is hilarious. It's Al Qaeda's fault even when it had nothing to do with Al Qaeda! Now I can kill anyone and say Al Qaeda inspired me to do it, and therefore Iran should be bombed instead. Hah.