Bonita  I apologise to you if I had hurt you, Im sorry I did it in self defence.

 Bonita, I certainly agree and accept your post 22 which is much better than your 4. 

Bonita   "Yet before the investigation has got underway, you have found the whole army guilty of rape."    Thats childish, I didnt say every men in the army are rapists. "You sleep peacefully in your bed at nightin Madurai as a free citizen and not a subject of some foreign power because of the sacrifices made by hundreds of thousands of soldiers." Thats cinematic, cos I just wanted to show my concern about army gettin rot. People like you who go bollywoodish when talked about army or patriotism will have to grow up to understand the life's realities. Im an Indian and Im proud about it, not just in words, Im walking that talk, which im least interested in explaining you. 

Madhu,

I have reread my post #5 and can see nothing which can be construed as a personal attack. However, if there is something in it which you find offensive, I apologise.

There is difference between "arrest" and "trial". There is no provision in any law with two exceptions (listed at the end) which prohibit the police from arresting any soldier suspected of a crime. There is a Kerala HC judgement which clearly indicates that there is no bar on service personnel being arrested  and that the question of releasing them into military custody for trial only arises if charges are framed against them.

Be that as it may, I gave you some examples to demonstrate how soldiers have less privileges than civilians when charged with criminal offences. If you still wish to believe that soldiers are treated with kid gloves, we shall have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

You continue to maintain that some soldiers have committed an offence and the army is indulging in a cover up when the investigation has yet to determine if a crime did take place, let alone who did it. I can hazard a guess at the reason, from the tenor of your post for the rush to judgement, but I may be wrong.

Kashmir is a disturbed area with many forces at play. It is a common tactic to malign security forces and accuse them of atrocities in order to drive a wedge between them and the civilian populace. In the Shopian case which created major unrest in the Kashmir valley in 2009 and 2010, one of the victims of "rape" was found during the post mortem to be a virgin. A case of manufactured 'outrage" over a crime which never took place.

The army is in Kashmir to do a job assigned to them and not because they wish to be there. I'm sure most of the soldiers being shot at or stoned would much rather be relaxing in Madurai and not having to wake up in the morning wondering if they'll be alive at the end of the day.

PS. Contrary to my previous statement that there is no law which prohibits arrest of soldiers, there are two cases when soldiers are provided immunity from arrest by the Army Act. These are :-

Sec 29(1) - No person subject to this Act shall, so long as he belongs to the Forces, be liable to be arrested for debt under any process issued by, or by the authority of, any civil or revenue court or revenue officer.

Sec 30(1) - No presiding officer or member of a court-martial, no judge advocate, no party to any proceeding before a court-martial, or his legal practitioner or agent, and no witness acting in obedience to a summons to attend a court-martial shall, while proceeding to, attending, or returning from, a court-martial, be liable to arrest under civil or revenue process.

Bonita         "Ya thats why they cannot even be arrested by the local police where the crime has occured."              ^^^^^       "It may interest you to know that most service persons charged with civil offences prefer to be tried by civilian courts rather than courts martial."  ^^^^^     Its great that your intellectual ability was able to find six differences between the two statements, and my poor ignorance couldn't.

 Oh Bonita, personal attack was made by you I just defended.. now you call me an antagonist separatist just to be concerned about the army's atrocities...thats funny...your version of army seems to be too perfect...such an ignorant belief is highly dangerous.

Madhu,

Please read the Army Act and tell me which section provides immunity to soldiers from Indian laws.

Ya thats why they cannot even be arrested by the local police where the crime has occured,

There is no such provision in law.

I can understand if your original statement was made out of ignorance. However, since you do not wish to contest what I have said but choose instead to resort to personal abuse by calling me arrogant, childish or cinematic then that indicates that there is more than ignorance behind the tirade. Your post #17 reveals the source of your antagonism.

It may interest you to know that most service persons charged with civil offences prefer to be tried by civilian courts rather than courts martial. The reason is that in a court martial, there is no scope for endless delays by adjournments and what not. The trial is usually over within two weeks of commencement. Further, there is no appeal against a sentence by court martial. If you consider the endless appeals which persons convicted in civil trials have available to them, you will understand how the service person's rights have been curtailed. The military criminal justice system has been severely attacked, not because of its leniency, but on the grounds that, unlike a civilian court, it is heavily biassed against the accused. You need only check conviction rates in courts martial versus those in ordinary criminal courts.

Perhaps you have also read reports put out by the J&K Police (not the Army) that medical examination of "the victim" show no sign of rape. The initial complaint stated that she was abducted for 48 hours. Now the parents say she was missing for 24 hours. In the absence of eye witnesses, rape is a very ifficult thing to prove.

I am expressing no opinion on whether the rape took place or not. If it did, then the perpetrators need to be identified and punished with the full force of law. You, however, are happy to pronounce guilt on the basis of an allegation. Closet separatists, whether they are at one end of the country or the other, are happy to cast aspersions on the one organisation which thwarts their ambitions.

 """Soldiers get no immunity from any law. They have less rights than you have as a citizen having surrendered many of their fundamental rights""".       ^^^^^^    Ya thats why they cannot even be arrested by the local police where the crime has occured, thats why every military matters is handled only by Marshall law, where  seniority, nepotism and favouritism rules. Where poor sepoys get stamped out easily and powerful officers aquitted readily. Bonita I wonder why people like you bring high sounding words like "code books or acts" to fear off commoners legitimate arguments, is that your arrogance Bonita well thats childish and cinematic.

 Bonita, I dont know why It is often a taboo and more often an anti-national act to be sceptic about a bunch of human beings we call army. Before advicing me it would have been appreciable if you have thought a little about our brave army men's infamous acts in Srilanka as peace keepers. There are scams and as well as criminals in the army profession, a profession so powerful which could demoralise the society if gone wrong. 

# 15

"...And if they are found to be false, the ones making charge and the instigators should be severely punished..."

HAHAHA

Welcome to the anti-male world where the womans word is Bible.

>> Each rape charge must be independently investigated.

And if they are found to be false, the ones making charge and the instigators should be severely punished.

Those who indulge in stone pelting and burning of govt vehicles just on the basis of these charges, should also be severely dealt with, including firing if they don't listen to reason.

Rajee,

>>  I never said it with a negative tone and intention.

I can accept that.

 HYPER-COVERAGE OF RAPE IN THE MEDIA HAS LEAD TO ANTI-MALE ATTITUDES BOTH AMONG MALES AND FEMALES.

THIS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HYPER REACTION TO EVEN FALSE ALLEGATIONS OF RAPE.

You are correct and I never said it with a negative tone and  intention. But if you observe, people tend to have one law for others and one law for them and their family. They seem to take one stand for the general public which is different from the stand that they would take if any of the family member is involved. In short, We all should learn to put our money where our mouth is.

<<Bringing in "your family" kind of exchange is a sign of immaturity.>>

Without taking away from the seriousness of this allegation. Anyone who knows Kashmir knows that this is a standard tactic of the separatists. They have used such incidents as catalysts to start a mass angry reaction. This then takes on a life and narrative of its own and unfortunately by the time it can be proved there was rape no rape the  situation is already out of control.This is what they want. I would not be surprised if army had nothing to do with it. Let them investigate fairly , swiftly and share the complete results with the people.

Rajee,

>>  With the activities of KAC now in the public domain, we dont know which of the so called atrocities is fabricated.

Those two things are unconnected.

>>  if family member is a rape victim from J&K then I would shift the onus...

By badmouthing Kashmiris we are weakening our position there. Each rape charge must be independently investigated. Bringing in "your family" kind of exchange is a sign of immaturity.

Anwar,

If you read my post, I mentioned "Given the recent developments of KAC". With the activities of KAC now in the public domain, we dont know which of the so called atrocities is fabricated. Remember the stone pelters who claimed to be pelting stones for the Genuine Kashmir Cause. It is now clear that these stone pelters were actually getting paid to pelt stones and then were crying foul when the police retaliated.

<<The Army commander said he will "not rule out" the possibility that the allegation levelled by the woman "can be an instigated thing".>>

But in the rape cases of Delhi, UP it is an open and shut case with the Victims really the victims and the guilty really the guilty. No one gave the victims  $$s to claim they were raped.

To blunt it bluntly, if your family member is a rape victim from Delhi, UP ... etc I would not have any problems in believing them but if family member is a rape victim from J&K then I would shift the onus on your family member to prove that she was indeed raped.

I hope I have driven the point enough

I wonder, Kashmir separatist leaders like Syed Ali Gilani who openly advocate sharia law has to say about this. As I understand it, according to sharia law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses.

This woman should be thankful that Kashmir is still part of Indian republic and she is getting full protection of Indian secular law. If she was indeed raped, (my full condolence to her) guilty party should and will be punished. However I have a sneaky suspicion that something is not kosher here, special interest groups are in full force to defame Indian Arm forces. I won’t be a bit surprise if her story turns out to be fake.

Unfortunately, we have no shortage of arm chair liberals like Arundhati Roy, Binayak Sen and Neelabh Mishra who live and thrives on feeding conspiracy theory. For these fools, truth does not matter, I bet there will be call for strike in Jammu and Kashmir until accused are hanged or stone to death.

Excellent response by the army and J&K police force so far.

Lets not forget , the last time two women drowned and subsequent allegations about army were proven FALSE.  Forensic tests showed that doctors, who confessed to be working under jihadi pressure, doctored and fabricated the vaginal swabs.

With a peaceful Kashmir this summer and with Mr Fai's arrest in NY this could be the work of sis-agents in the valley.  If any force personnel is involved , punish him.  If not the security forces need to eliminate the isi-jihadis who fabricate this every year.

Gopinath Rajee,

>> Given the recent development of "Kashmiri American Council (KAC)" in the US along with the support of ISI not in the public domain, it would be better if the "Onus Of Proof" is shifted on the Alleged Victims rather then shifting the Onus on the Army to proove its innocence.

This is a losing argument. (BTW, aren't you the one who asked me a couple of days ago, " I wonder if you wud have the same opinion about her if the women of your family were a victim of such rapes.")

Given the recent development of  "Kashmiri American Council (KAC)" in the US along with the support of ISI not in the public domain, it would be better if the "Onus Of Proof" is shifted on the Alleged Victims rather then shifting the Onus on the Army to proove its innocence.

It is time that we Indians woke upto the historic crap that has been peddled about Kashmir.

Madhu,

It would be useful if you read the article before itting your keyboard. An allegation has been made. It is being investigated. The senior officer present has assured that anyone found guilty will be punished.

Yet before the investigation has got underway, you have found the whole army guilty of rape. You sleep peacefully in your bed at nightin Madurai as a free citizen and not a subject of some foreign power because of the sacrifices made by hundreds of thousands of soldiers. yet you feel free to malign them.

I suggest you read the Army Act before you make statements like

The military which is comfortably immunised from Indian law

Soldiers get no immunity from any law. They have less rights than you have as a citizen having surrendered many of their fundamental rights.

If this is true, these soldiers need to be punished. But it is fake to malign army, it is useless as the I am sure the damage would have been already done with propoganda machine in full flow. Thankfully we will not have service of Fai to amplify it.

 Indian army, whether they do peace keeping efficiently or not, they are becoming experts in rape. The military which is comfortably immunised from Indian law must be having tons and tons of skeletons in its cupboards. 

 investigation should be trust worthy to the citizen otherwise citizen's trust over army forces will decrese tremendously as sometime in past has happen.

Madhu,

It would be useful if you read the article before itting your keyboard. An allegation has been made. It is being investigated. The senior officer present has assured that anyone found guilty will be punished.

Yet before the investigation has got underway, you have found the whole army guilty of rape. You sleep peacefully in your bed at nightin Madurai as a free citizen and not a subject of some foreign power because of the sacrifices made by hundreds of thousands of soldiers. yet you feel free to malign them.

I suggest you read the Army Act before you make statements like

The military which is comfortably immunised from Indian law

Soldiers get no immunity from any law. They have less rights than you have as a citizen having surrendered many of their fundamental rights.

I wonder, Kashmir separatist leaders like Syed Ali Gilani who openly advocate sharia law has to say about this. As I understand it, according to sharia law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses.

This woman should be thankful that Kashmir is still part of Indian republic and she is getting full protection of Indian secular law. If she was indeed raped, (my full condolence to her) guilty party should and will be punished. However I have a sneaky suspicion that something is not kosher here, special interest groups are in full force to defame Indian Arm forces. I won’t be a bit surprise if her story turns out to be fake.

Unfortunately, we have no shortage of arm chair liberals like Arundhati Roy, Binayak Sen and Neelabh Mishra who live and thrives on feeding conspiracy theory. For these fools, truth does not matter, I bet there will be call for strike in Jammu and Kashmir until accused are hanged or stone to death.

Madhu,

Please read the Army Act and tell me which section provides immunity to soldiers from Indian laws.

Ya thats why they cannot even be arrested by the local police where the crime has occured,

There is no such provision in law.

I can understand if your original statement was made out of ignorance. However, since you do not wish to contest what I have said but choose instead to resort to personal abuse by calling me arrogant, childish or cinematic then that indicates that there is more than ignorance behind the tirade. Your post #17 reveals the source of your antagonism.

It may interest you to know that most service persons charged with civil offences prefer to be tried by civilian courts rather than courts martial. The reason is that in a court martial, there is no scope for endless delays by adjournments and what not. The trial is usually over within two weeks of commencement. Further, there is no appeal against a sentence by court martial. If you consider the endless appeals which persons convicted in civil trials have available to them, you will understand how the service person's rights have been curtailed. The military criminal justice system has been severely attacked, not because of its leniency, but on the grounds that, unlike a civilian court, it is heavily biassed against the accused. You need only check conviction rates in courts martial versus those in ordinary criminal courts.

Perhaps you have also read reports put out by the J&K Police (not the Army) that medical examination of "the victim" show no sign of rape. The initial complaint stated that she was abducted for 48 hours. Now the parents say she was missing for 24 hours. In the absence of eye witnesses, rape is a very ifficult thing to prove.

I am expressing no opinion on whether the rape took place or not. If it did, then the perpetrators need to be identified and punished with the full force of law. You, however, are happy to pronounce guilt on the basis of an allegation. Closet separatists, whether they are at one end of the country or the other, are happy to cast aspersions on the one organisation which thwarts their ambitions.

Given the recent development of  "Kashmiri American Council (KAC)" in the US along with the support of ISI not in the public domain, it would be better if the "Onus Of Proof" is shifted on the Alleged Victims rather then shifting the Onus on the Army to proove its innocence.

It is time that we Indians woke upto the historic crap that has been peddled about Kashmir.

Madhu,

I have reread my post #5 and can see nothing which can be construed as a personal attack. However, if there is something in it which you find offensive, I apologise.

There is difference between "arrest" and "trial". There is no provision in any law with two exceptions (listed at the end) which prohibit the police from arresting any soldier suspected of a crime. There is a Kerala HC judgement which clearly indicates that there is no bar on service personnel being arrested  and that the question of releasing them into military custody for trial only arises if charges are framed against them.

Be that as it may, I gave you some examples to demonstrate how soldiers have less privileges than civilians when charged with criminal offences. If you still wish to believe that soldiers are treated with kid gloves, we shall have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

You continue to maintain that some soldiers have committed an offence and the army is indulging in a cover up when the investigation has yet to determine if a crime did take place, let alone who did it. I can hazard a guess at the reason, from the tenor of your post for the rush to judgement, but I may be wrong.

Kashmir is a disturbed area with many forces at play. It is a common tactic to malign security forces and accuse them of atrocities in order to drive a wedge between them and the civilian populace. In the Shopian case which created major unrest in the Kashmir valley in 2009 and 2010, one of the victims of "rape" was found during the post mortem to be a virgin. A case of manufactured 'outrage" over a crime which never took place.

The army is in Kashmir to do a job assigned to them and not because they wish to be there. I'm sure most of the soldiers being shot at or stoned would much rather be relaxing in Madurai and not having to wake up in the morning wondering if they'll be alive at the end of the day.

PS. Contrary to my previous statement that there is no law which prohibits arrest of soldiers, there are two cases when soldiers are provided immunity from arrest by the Army Act. These are :-

Sec 29(1) - No person subject to this Act shall, so long as he belongs to the Forces, be liable to be arrested for debt under any process issued by, or by the authority of, any civil or revenue court or revenue officer.

Sec 30(1) - No presiding officer or member of a court-martial, no judge advocate, no party to any proceeding before a court-martial, or his legal practitioner or agent, and no witness acting in obedience to a summons to attend a court-martial shall, while proceeding to, attending, or returning from, a court-martial, be liable to arrest under civil or revenue process.

Excellent response by the army and J&K police force so far.

Lets not forget , the last time two women drowned and subsequent allegations about army were proven FALSE.  Forensic tests showed that doctors, who confessed to be working under jihadi pressure, doctored and fabricated the vaginal swabs.

With a peaceful Kashmir this summer and with Mr Fai's arrest in NY this could be the work of sis-agents in the valley.  If any force personnel is involved , punish him.  If not the security forces need to eliminate the isi-jihadis who fabricate this every year.

>> Each rape charge must be independently investigated.

And if they are found to be false, the ones making charge and the instigators should be severely punished.

Those who indulge in stone pelting and burning of govt vehicles just on the basis of these charges, should also be severely dealt with, including firing if they don't listen to reason.

If this is true, these soldiers need to be punished. But it is fake to malign army, it is useless as the I am sure the damage would have been already done with propoganda machine in full flow. Thankfully we will not have service of Fai to amplify it.

Without taking away from the seriousness of this allegation. Anyone who knows Kashmir knows that this is a standard tactic of the separatists. They have used such incidents as catalysts to start a mass angry reaction. This then takes on a life and narrative of its own and unfortunately by the time it can be proved there was rape no rape the  situation is already out of control.This is what they want. I would not be surprised if army had nothing to do with it. Let them investigate fairly , swiftly and share the complete results with the people.

Anwar,

If you read my post, I mentioned "Given the recent developments of KAC". With the activities of KAC now in the public domain, we dont know which of the so called atrocities is fabricated. Remember the stone pelters who claimed to be pelting stones for the Genuine Kashmir Cause. It is now clear that these stone pelters were actually getting paid to pelt stones and then were crying foul when the police retaliated.

<<The Army commander said he will "not rule out" the possibility that the allegation levelled by the woman "can be an instigated thing".>>

But in the rape cases of Delhi, UP it is an open and shut case with the Victims really the victims and the guilty really the guilty. No one gave the victims  $$s to claim they were raped.

To blunt it bluntly, if your family member is a rape victim from Delhi, UP ... etc I would not have any problems in believing them but if family member is a rape victim from J&K then I would shift the onus on your family member to prove that she was indeed raped.

I hope I have driven the point enough

Bonita   "Yet before the investigation has got underway, you have found the whole army guilty of rape."    Thats childish, I didnt say every men in the army are rapists. "You sleep peacefully in your bed at nightin Madurai as a free citizen and not a subject of some foreign power because of the sacrifices made by hundreds of thousands of soldiers." Thats cinematic, cos I just wanted to show my concern about army gettin rot. People like you who go bollywoodish when talked about army or patriotism will have to grow up to understand the life's realities. Im an Indian and Im proud about it, not just in words, Im walking that talk, which im least interested in explaining you. 

 Oh Bonita, personal attack was made by you I just defended.. now you call me an antagonist separatist just to be concerned about the army's atrocities...thats funny...your version of army seems to be too perfect...such an ignorant belief is highly dangerous.

 Bonita, I dont know why It is often a taboo and more often an anti-national act to be sceptic about a bunch of human beings we call army. Before advicing me it would have been appreciable if you have thought a little about our brave army men's infamous acts in Srilanka as peace keepers. There are scams and as well as criminals in the army profession, a profession so powerful which could demoralise the society if gone wrong. 

# 15

"...And if they are found to be false, the ones making charge and the instigators should be severely punished..."

HAHAHA

Welcome to the anti-male world where the womans word is Bible.

You are correct and I never said it with a negative tone and  intention. But if you observe, people tend to have one law for others and one law for them and their family. They seem to take one stand for the general public which is different from the stand that they would take if any of the family member is involved. In short, We all should learn to put our money where our mouth is.

<<Bringing in "your family" kind of exchange is a sign of immaturity.>>

Gopinath Rajee,

>> Given the recent development of "Kashmiri American Council (KAC)" in the US along with the support of ISI not in the public domain, it would be better if the "Onus Of Proof" is shifted on the Alleged Victims rather then shifting the Onus on the Army to proove its innocence.

This is a losing argument. (BTW, aren't you the one who asked me a couple of days ago, " I wonder if you wud have the same opinion about her if the women of your family were a victim of such rapes.")

 Indian army, whether they do peace keeping efficiently or not, they are becoming experts in rape. The military which is comfortably immunised from Indian law must be having tons and tons of skeletons in its cupboards. 

 Indian army, whether they do peace keeping efficiently or not, they are becoming experts in rape. The military which is comfortably immunised from Indian law must be having tons and tons of skeletons in its cupboards. 

Gopinath Rajee,

>> Given the recent development of "Kashmiri American Council (KAC)" in the US along with the support of ISI not in the public domain, it would be better if the "Onus Of Proof" is shifted on the Alleged Victims rather then shifting the Onus on the Army to proove its innocence.

This is a losing argument. (BTW, aren't you the one who asked me a couple of days ago, " I wonder if you wud have the same opinion about her if the women of your family were a victim of such rapes.")

 Oh Bonita, personal attack was made by you I just defended.. now you call me an antagonist separatist just to be concerned about the army's atrocities...thats funny...your version of army seems to be too perfect...such an ignorant belief is highly dangerous.

 Bonita, I dont know why It is often a taboo and more often an anti-national act to be sceptic about a bunch of human beings we call army. Before advicing me it would have been appreciable if you have thought a little about our brave army men's infamous acts in Srilanka as peace keepers. There are scams and as well as criminals in the army profession, a profession so powerful which could demoralise the society if gone wrong. 

 investigation should be trust worthy to the citizen otherwise citizen's trust over army forces will decrese tremendously as sometime in past has happen.

Bonita  I apologise to you if I had hurt you, Im sorry I did it in self defence.

 Bonita, I certainly agree and accept your post 22 which is much better than your 4. 

Bonita   "Yet before the investigation has got underway, you have found the whole army guilty of rape."    Thats childish, I didnt say every men in the army are rapists. "You sleep peacefully in your bed at nightin Madurai as a free citizen and not a subject of some foreign power because of the sacrifices made by hundreds of thousands of soldiers." Thats cinematic, cos I just wanted to show my concern about army gettin rot. People like you who go bollywoodish when talked about army or patriotism will have to grow up to understand the life's realities. Im an Indian and Im proud about it, not just in words, Im walking that talk, which im least interested in explaining you. 

Rajee,

>>  With the activities of KAC now in the public domain, we dont know which of the so called atrocities is fabricated.

Those two things are unconnected.

>>  if family member is a rape victim from J&K then I would shift the onus...

By badmouthing Kashmiris we are weakening our position there. Each rape charge must be independently investigated. Bringing in "your family" kind of exchange is a sign of immaturity.

Bonita         "Ya thats why they cannot even be arrested by the local police where the crime has occured."              ^^^^^       "It may interest you to know that most service persons charged with civil offences prefer to be tried by civilian courts rather than courts martial."  ^^^^^     Its great that your intellectual ability was able to find six differences between the two statements, and my poor ignorance couldn't.

 """Soldiers get no immunity from any law. They have less rights than you have as a citizen having surrendered many of their fundamental rights""".       ^^^^^^    Ya thats why they cannot even be arrested by the local police where the crime has occured, thats why every military matters is handled only by Marshall law, where  seniority, nepotism and favouritism rules. Where poor sepoys get stamped out easily and powerful officers aquitted readily. Bonita I wonder why people like you bring high sounding words like "code books or acts" to fear off commoners legitimate arguments, is that your arrogance Bonita well thats childish and cinematic.

If this is true, these soldiers need to be punished. But it is fake to malign army, it is useless as the I am sure the damage would have been already done with propoganda machine in full flow. Thankfully we will not have service of Fai to amplify it.

Excellent response by the army and J&K police force so far.

Lets not forget , the last time two women drowned and subsequent allegations about army were proven FALSE.  Forensic tests showed that doctors, who confessed to be working under jihadi pressure, doctored and fabricated the vaginal swabs.

With a peaceful Kashmir this summer and with Mr Fai's arrest in NY this could be the work of sis-agents in the valley.  If any force personnel is involved , punish him.  If not the security forces need to eliminate the isi-jihadis who fabricate this every year.